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Old 03-31-2010, 12:24 PM
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Default The Thread of Personal Vices and Other Behaviours That Are Otherwise Bad For You

So, we need to not jam up the Thread of Random Discontent with this smoking talk that I inadvertently started. However, I don't like starting threads, but I did have some help (from a non-smoker -- see, we can work together, people!).

Quote:
(12:14:32 PM) djSyndrome: I almost started a thread
(12:14:47 PM) djSyndrome: 'The catch-all thread of personal vices and other behavio(u)rs that are otherwise bad for you'
(12:14:52 PM) Luana: Heh.
(12:15:01 PM) djSyndrome: But!
(12:15:11 PM) djSyndrome: Considering that two of the biggest threads on talking time ever were started by me
(12:15:15 PM) djSyndrome: SOMEONE ELSE NEEDS TO DO IT
(12:15:26 PM) Luana: Does someone else = Luana?
(12:15:32 PM) Luana: Tell me what to put in it and I will
(12:16:18 PM) djSyndrome: Always start out with a joke!
(12:16:23 PM) djSyndrome: something self-effacing usually works!
(12:16:44 PM) djSyndrome: Also, accept the fact that people on the internet will either like or hate you, but they will usually only talk when it's the latter
(12:17:11 PM) Luana: You realize that I'm half tempted to just put part of this chat log as the text, and then link to my post that started it all
(12:17:42 PM) djSyndrome: go for it.
Let's do this!
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:25 PM
Dizzy Dizzy is offline
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The internet.
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:29 PM
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Talking Time.
ohhhhhhh shiiiiiiiiiiiit
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:31 PM
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We should form an AA-type subforum for us TT addicts. That'll help us.
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:36 PM
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The internet.
I would argue that the internet is worse for me than the smoking, honestly.
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:38 PM
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I would argue that the internet is worse for me than the smoking, honestly.
The radiation burns on my mom's esophagus are moving me to disagree with that assessment.
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:39 PM
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If I spend 3 hours playing a videogame or watching a TV series, that to me is time well spent. If I spend 3 hours surfing the 'net, I feel like I'm wasting my life. Random internet surfing is probably the one thing that I wish I could spend less time doing. Thankfully, I generally don't waste more than an hour at a time, but even that is too much most of the time.

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I would argue that the internet is worse for me than the smoking, honestly.
Nothing is worse than smoking.
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
The radiation burns on my mom's esophagus are moving me to disagree with that assessment.
The fact that I have terrible asthma and the beginnings of COPD - both from heavy secondhand smoke exposure as a child - would compel me to agree with you.

I understand that forty years ago people weren't educated to the dangers of smoking, but now there is just no excuse for starting other than 'hey, I want a shorter life expectancy/horrifying painful death!' Of course, forty years from now when we all have brain cancer from yapping on cell phones all the time, our grandchildren will shake their heads at us and wonder why we ever did anything so stupid.
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:55 PM
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The problem as I see it is that smoking is just being lumped together. There is smoking as a vice and smoking as an addiction.

There is a difference.

Anything that is an addiction (whether it harms you physically or not) is bad for you, mostly because you it limits one's ability to be free. Habitual smoking will kill you, but as stated in the discontent thread, so will a lot of things.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:00 PM
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From the other thread:

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Originally Posted by Sarcasmorator View Post
But again, fat people have no lock on this feature of the species. A jerkass who isn't fat will find another excuse to be a jerkass. You've said before that you have a problem with fat people, and you use examples of jerkass fat people to justify that problem.

That's really not OK! It tars all fat people beyond a certain arbitrary threshold you've created with the same brush. It's the same rationale behind other forms of prejudice.
Look, if you're grossly overweight, how did you get there? You made bad decisions and compounded them with worse ones. Not only did you eat poorly but you chose not to exercise and you let it spiral out of control until you were a billion pounds. You can't take care of yourself and you make bad choices. Plain and simple.

It's easy for people to make excuses and avoid facing it. "Oh it's okay for me to be fat! Alex is just a jerk!" Well sure, I am a jerk...but that doesn't change things. If you're 400 lbs., it's because you make bad choices. That's the only way (barring some medical condition, which is obviously not their fault). The only way. It doesn't mean that you don't make good ones too. It doesn't mean you only make bad ones or are a jerkass. But it does mean that at least some of the time, you make poor choices and you lack the je ne sais quoi to address them and correct them.

And yes, I know I sound like a hypocrite here. The irony is not lost on me. So someone can kill themselves via smokes and not burritos? As an ex-fat person, I am biased and a hypocrite and whatever, fine, sure.

But I think there's a difference between the two issues. Smoking is a vice; people know that going into it it will fuck them up. Fat people may not necessarily. I know that when I was growing up, I wasn't taught proper eating habits and I wasn't encouraged to exercise by my parents. School sort of got the exercise/food pyramid message out there, but I wasn't in the right mindset to receive it. And even if I was, I was a kid and I still had to eat what my parents gave me and do what they said. So it didn't really matter. I got fat and it took me a long time to learn that "Hey, when you open a bag of chips you don't have to eat the whole thing" and "Going outside is OKAY". It's like my smoking argument, if it doesn't affect someone else, then whatever. But bad eating habits can carry over to your children. Smoking can't.

Well, okay, smoking can too, but in this day and age with drug education being what it is, it seems less likely to me and therefore less of a problem. And if you're a smoker and you smoke in front of your kids, then yes you are obviously an asshole and should not do that. It's one thing to kill yourself slowly. But if you're 350+ lbs. and you eat nothing but shit all day, then what's going to happen to your family?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djSyndrome View Post
I understand that forty years ago people weren't educated to the dangers of smoking, but now there is just no excuse for starting other than 'hey, I want a shorter life expectancy/horrifying painful death!'
This is true. But if someone makes that decision, and it doesn't affect anyone else, who are we to question them on it?

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Originally Posted by MCBanjoMike View Post
Nothing is worse than smoking.
Smoking is worse than rape? Nah just kidding I know what you meant. It just sounded kinda funny though, you know?
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  #11  
Old 03-31-2010, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by djSyndrome View Post
I understand that forty years ago people weren't educated to the dangers of smoking, but now there is just no excuse for starting other than 'hey, I want a shorter life expectancy/horrifying painful death!' Of course, forty years from now when we all have brain cancer from yapping on cell phones all the time, our grandchildren will shake their heads at us and wonder why we ever did anything so stupid.
Can you get brain cancer from texting? They may say our teenagers were brighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alixsar View Post
Look, if you're grossly overweight, how did you get there? You made bad decisions and compounded them with worse ones. Not only did you eat poorly but you chose not to exercise and you let it spiral out of control until you were a billion pounds. You can't take care of yourself and you make bad choices. Plain and simple.
Sometimes it's the genes.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:05 PM
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I dunno Alixsar - the main reason I'm trying to quit is so that I don't put myself into an early grave, not so much for myself, but so that I don't put my future wife and family through it.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taidan View Post
I dunno Alixsar - the main reason I'm trying to quit is so that I don't put myself into an early grave, not so much for myself, but so that I don't put my future wife and family through it.
And that's obviously good. But if you decided to continue smoking away from your future wife and family and were not hurting anyone else, and despite everyone wanting you to quit, then who am I to tell you what to do with your life? Who would I be to say "Taidan you're an asshole quit smoking already!" It's yours to keep or throw away. Obviously I'm glad you decided to keep it, but if you chose otherwise, it's not my place to judge you.

Now, this is obviously not the case if you were smoking around your future wife/family. That's different. Then you're just a douchebag.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Alixsar View Post
And that's obviously good. But if you continued smoking away from your future wife and family and were not hurting anyone else, despite everyone wanting you to quit, then who am I to tell you what to do with your life? It's yours to keep or throw away. Obviously I'm glad you decided to keep it, but if you chose otherwise, it's not my place to judge you.

Now, this is obviously not the case if you were smoking around your future wife/family. That's different. Then you're just a douchebag.
All in agreement here.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:12 PM
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Yeah, you're acting liek death doesn;t effect anyone around the person who dies.

Also, smoking (and drinking) has a strong effect on your kids.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alixsar View Post
This is true. But if someone makes that decision, and it doesn't affect anyone else, who are we to question them on it?
If I see someone smoking in the back of Rite Aid on their break, I don't give it a second thought. If people want to kill themselves, that's their call. Side benefit: more smoking means more tax money going into the state coffers! My only real discontent is that smokers aren't universally forced to pay higher health insurance premiums.

But every time I see a parent smoking in a vehicle with kids inside I just want to reach through the window and strangle the hell out of them. Very few things in life make me as angry.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by falselogic View Post
The problem as I see it is that smoking is just being lumped together. There is smoking as a vice and smoking as an addiction.
Yes. I can't say my weekly bowl causes any sort of addiction or overuse.
It is something I enjoy doing. I pour some iced tea, go out to the back porch, sit in a comfy chair, read Game Spite Quarterly (currently), and enjoy my pipe. Hardly something that causes any stink or affects others. Yes, it may slightly increase health risk, but as I mentioned before, many things I do increase that risk. I am aware of the potential downfalls of each activity and I continue to do what I enjoy.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Luana View Post
Let's do this!
I'm too nice!
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by falselogic View Post
There is smoking as a vice and smoking as an addiction.
It's hard to make this distinction when you've never known a (tobacco) smoker who wasn't horribly addicted.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Alixsar View Post
But bad eating habits can carry over to your children. Smoking can't.
Ridiculous and flatly untrue. I know for a fact that my mom started smoking by following the example of her parents. Who, by the way, died of lung cancer in their mid-60s. She quit when I was around 5, but she really has to watch out, and so do I because I was breathing cigarette smoke every day after I came home from the hospital.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:29 PM
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I'll stop trolling Alixsar for a moment. But just a moment.

In truth, I'm not stridently anti-smoking- people should be free to do it if they wish, and I'm for the legalization of other drugs, as well. However, smoking has a very strong impact on those around you and the public in general when considered in a broader context. Smoking was not just your personal decision- you imposed it on all non-smokers because you were sitting in our restaurants, in our office buildings, on our planes, and outside our doorways, forcing your nasty smoke on us. Eventually the majority of non-smokers got tired of it and made it so that you couldn't do this any longer. Such is life in a democracy. Personally, I think the smell is terrible, and I'm happy to see it retreat from public life.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThricebornPhoenix View Post
It's hard to make this distinction when you've never known a (tobacco) smoker who wasn't horribly addicted.
I know several people who smoke but aren't addicted. I smoke but am not addicted. I can say that because I used to be a heavy smoker myself, but now only occasionally (less than once a month) smoke pipe or hookah.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falselogic View Post
The problem as I see it is that smoking is just being lumped together. There is smoking as a vice and smoking as an addiction.

There is a difference.

Anything that is an addiction (whether it harms you physically or not) is bad for you, mostly because you it limits one's ability to be free. Habitual smoking will kill you, but as stated in the discontent thread, so will a lot of things.
... and this is why you're the only logic I like, falselogic.

I don't consider myself a smoker in the OH GOD I NEED ONE RIGHT NOW OR I WILL DIE sense, but more along the lines of a social smoker. It's just that in the last two weeks or so, I've noticed it becoming less of a social thing and more of a thing thing, so I'm going back to the way things were before.

Do people who smoke, whether it be every now and then or in their bedrooms, make bad choices regarding their health? Sure. They're aware of it, too, trust me. I just don't like seeing this crass generalization of smokers when there are certainly different levels to things.

I will say this, though -- I am in favor of universal smoke bans except for when it comes to establishments such as a smoke shops, hookah bars, and bars (the owner should get the choice in the matter, as far as I'm concerned). I don't want my kid exposed to cigarette smoke unwillingly. I want that to be her choice.

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Disclaimer: I have never been accused of being too nice.
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I'm too nice!
So much has changed in such a short time!
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luana View Post

Do people who smoke, whether it be every now and then or in their bedrooms, make bad choices regarding their health? Sure. They're aware of it, too, trust me. I just don't like seeing this crass generalization of smokers when there are certainly different levels to things.
That's true. Most of the younger smokers I know have never lit up in a restaurant, or a building of any sort. They're used to going outside and gathering somewhere out of the way. Maybe they shouldn't be lumped next to past generations that would smoke anywhere and everywhere, but it happens, and I just got used to that.
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djSyndrome View Post
If I see someone smoking in the back of Rite Aid on their break, I don't give it a second thought. If people want to kill themselves, that's their call. Side benefit: more smoking means more tax money going into the state coffers! My only real discontent is that smokers aren't universally forced to pay higher health insurance premiums.

But every time I see a parent smoking in a vehicle with kids inside I just want to reach through the window and strangle the hell out of them. Very few things in life make me as angry.
Agreed. Its one thing to do it to yourself but another to force it onto another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick View Post
Yeah, you're acting liek death doesn;t effect anyone around the person who dies.

Also, smoking (and drinking) has a strong effect on your kids.
Well everyone dies. If someone chooses to take an active part in it, that's their call.

Re: the article. Well no shit. If your kid sees you smoking they'll think that's normal. Again, that's not something I think is a good idea. The whole "not affecting others"-part of it covers that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasmorator View Post
Ridiculous and flatly untrue. I know for a fact that my mom started smoking by following the example of her parents. Who, by the way, died of lung cancer in their mid-60s. She quit when I was around 5, but she really has to watch out, and so do I because I was breathing cigarette smoke every day after I came home from the hospital.
Like I said immediately after that bit you quoted, it certainly can but I have to imagine it's less likely today. Anti-drug education and smoking research weren't where they are now when your mom was growing up. As I said before, I'm okay with smoking as long as it doesn't adversely affect anyone else. So your grandparents don't fit what I'm talking about. I agree; that's all bad and a shame that it happened. And it's great that your mother quit.

But today is not when your mother grew up. Your daughter is not going to grow up in the same climate as your mother or even as you did or even as I did. The anti-smoking message is everywhere today. If you go to an American school, you will sit through those anti-drug classes and it will be drilled into you during health class that smoking is bad. In this day and age, if you smoke, it's because you want to despite the risks. And if you decide to do that, then so be it.

Now, if you do so around your kids, you're a piece of shit. Pure and simple. It's flat out irresponsible. But if you smoke, and you don't do it around your kid or anyone else, then what's the harm? They're allowed to do so and it's no one's place to judge them.

But getting back to grossly overweight people...what chance do their children have? If a family serves their children nothing but fast food garbage, then their children will learn that that's what you eat. They will learn to love garbage and they will seek out garbage when they are hungry. Garbage will be all they know. If a fat person doesn't exercise, they probably won't teach their children to do so either. Their children will grow up eating garbage and sitting around. What chance do they have? I see it at work every day. Overweight people buying nothing but pizza rolls and hot pockets with their chubby kids. What chance do those kids have? It's one thing to choose to kill yourself slowly, but it's another to instill bad habits in the next generation that will forever taint their choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
I'll stop trolling Alixsar for a moment. But just a moment.

In truth, I'm not stridently anti-smoking- people should be free to do it if they wish, and I'm for the legalization of other drugs, as well. However, smoking has a very strong impact on those around you and the public in general when considered in a broader context. Smoking was not just your personal decision- you imposed it on all non-smokers because you were sitting in our restaurants, in our office buildings, on our planes, and outside our doorways, forcing your nasty smoke on us. Eventually the majority of non-smokers got tired of it and made it so that you couldn't do this any longer. Such is life in a democracy. Personally, I think the smell is terrible, and I'm happy to see it retreat from public life.
Again, this just goes back to the whole "as long as it's not affecting anyone else" thing. I feel that what California has going on is pretty close to ideal. Nothing in restaurants, designated areas on campuses (which not everyone follows but most do), have to be a certain distance away from businesses...

...also why would you stop? Keep going!

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So much has changed in such a short time!
He's never been accused of it, but he sure as hell believes it.
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:04 PM
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Spending excessive amounts of time outside without sunscreen.
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:21 PM
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Another vice approaches!

So Baltimore is mulling around the idea of extending drinking hours from 2 to 4AM, and of course there is debate for and against it. I'm kind of curious to see how it will pan out (though I plan to move somewhere outside of the city this year, as I decided that 2AM already makes the summer months too loud for me).
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:21 PM
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My fiancee smokes and I don't. I've been accused of starting smoking multiple times since we've been together. Coworkers staged a mini-intervention to get me to quit smoking.

It helps that Bdazzld is the most considerate smoker ever. She only smokes far away from entryways, never smokes in our house or in the car, and will move away from oncoming people if she is smoking. It angers her if we're in a crowd somewhere and we smell some other smoker's smoke.
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:21 PM
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So where does taxing a vice come into this? Taxing what is essentially freedom of choice. It seems ironic that the much despised cigarette smokers support failing fiscal policies through the addition of millions of dollars into state budgets. The government could not afford everyone quitting!

Is this "get it while it's good" approach towards taxing a vice proper? Alcohol could almost as easily be vilified on the same grounds. All beer drinkers could be facing usage restrictions and over-taxation using similar logic. Would we support that? This may be starting down another rabbit hole...
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SayWhatNow View Post
So where does taxing a vice come into this? Taxing what is essentially freedom of choice. It seems ironic that the much despised cigarette smokers support failing fiscal policies through the addition of millions of dollars into state budgets. The government could not afford everyone quitting!

Is this "get it while it's good" approach towards taxing a vice proper? Alcohol could almost as easily be vilified on the same grounds. All beer drinkers could be facing usage restrictions and over-taxation using similar logic. Would we support that? This may be starting down another rabbit hole...
Depending on where you are, alcohol taxes aren't going anywhere. To relate to my last post, Maryland's super low alcohol taxes are nearly impervious to change.
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