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  #5851  
Old 03-18-2015, 02:18 AM
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"We spent good money on Neelix's feet, so you're going to sit there and enjoy them."
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  #5852  
Old 03-18-2015, 07:00 PM
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"Cost of Living" was 45 of the most misspent minutes of my life.
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  #5853  
Old 03-18-2015, 07:47 PM
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Finished Voyager last night.

Still a little uncertain what exactly happened in the last five, or less, minutes of the last episode...

Was this a rushed last season? Were they expecting another but then found out they weren't renewed?

The romance between Chokotay and Seven seemed a little rushed too.

All in all I gave it 4 stars.
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  #5854  
Old 03-18-2015, 07:53 PM
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Still a little uncertain what exactly happened in the last five, or less, minutes of the last episode...
Old Janeway allowed herself to get captured because she injected herself with a supervirus that infected the Borg Collective and brought the whole thing to its knees, nuking their entire network. Voyager surfed the exploding/collapsing transwarp network all the way to Earth. B/C the Borg had apparently built a transwarp conduit exit next to Earth without anybody noticing. They skimmed like a dozen years off their journey and it ended in happytimes.

Chakotay & Seven was almost as stupid and forced as Worf & Troi.

I'm pretty sure they knew that the show was going to end at season 7.
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  #5855  
Old 03-18-2015, 08:06 PM
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Old Janeway allowed herself to get captured because she injected herself with a supervirus that infected the Borg Collective and brought the whole thing to its knees, nuking their entire network. Voyager surfed the exploding/collapsing transwarp network all the way to Earth. B/C the Borg had apparently built a transwarp conduit exit next to Earth without anybody noticing. They skimmed like a dozen years off their journey and it ended in happytimes.

Chakotay & Seven was almost as stupid and forced as Worf & Troi.

I'm pretty sure they knew that the show was going to end at season 7.
I understood that part. It was more we need to turn out of the conduit here or we'll break up. We'll end up back in the Delta quadrant. All of a sudden we're emerging from inside the Borg sphere that was behind us...
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  #5856  
Old 03-18-2015, 08:39 PM
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Not totally sure either. I guess it swallowed them up and then they got back out?

The thing I hate about the Voyager finale is how it's just *ACTION ACTION! "We're back!" Shot of flying toward Earth. Credits.*

There's really no resolution at all. It just quits.
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  #5857  
Old 03-18-2015, 09:53 PM
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I already thought so at the time, but recently I've been watching a lot of shows which are prone to just going ahead and resolving the main plot early and leaving the final episode or two for low-key epilogues, and the show really would have been much better served by going that route.

Have the doctor getting into talks about autonomy and general holodeck tech exploitability. Show all the unlikable characters reuniting with their unlikeable families. Tense arguing about what to do with 7 of 9. Janeway's court martial trial. Some weird awkward murmuring about how the Maquis really stopped being a thing, like, a week after they all left with no lasting tensions of any sort...
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  #5858  
Old 03-18-2015, 11:21 PM
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Much as I had some issues with the actual execution, I appreciated that BSG resolved its big conflict with an 45-60 left to go. Series end best when there's an exhalation, even if they cough a bit on the odd bit of dumb shit.

American Horror Story is really good at this, actually. All three seasons I've seen most of spend about 10-11 episodes on the main storyline, then cool down for an hour before having an epilogue/wrap-up episode. Buffy did this sometimes too; season 4 comes to mind.
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  #5859  
Old 03-19-2015, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Sarcasmorator View Post
Not totally sure either. I guess it swallowed them up and then they got back out?

The thing I hate about the Voyager finale is how it's just *ACTION ACTION! "We're back!" Shot of flying toward Earth. Credits.*

There's really no resolution at all. It just quits.
One could argue that it did that from the second episode on...

Anyway. I'm watching Star Trek VI right now, and it's pretty good! Leonard Nimoy had a hand in writing this one, and it shows. There are some really juicy lines in this film...

Kirk: "I can't believe I kissed you!"
Phony Kirk: "I thought it was your life's ambition!"
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  #5860  
Old 03-19-2015, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Falselogic View Post
I understood that part. It was more we need to turn out of the conduit here or we'll break up. We'll end up back in the Delta quadrant. All of a sudden we're emerging from inside the Borg sphere that was behind us...
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Originally Posted by Sarcasmorator View Post
Not totally sure either. I guess it swallowed them up and then they got back out?

The thing I hate about the Voyager finale is how it's just *ACTION ACTION! "We're back!" Shot of flying toward Earth. Credits.*

There's really no resolution at all. It just quits.
Being chased by Borg Sphere and getting overtaken in speed by one - reasonable. Borg sphere trying to capture Voyager - reasonable. Both flying in the same direction to get away from cascade explosion behind them, reasonable. Voyager intentionally using the sphere as a way to get out of the collapsing conduit and then blowing the thing up from the inside with its offensive upgrades, reasonable. At happens really fast so yeah, it can be a little discombobulating, but it all made sense to me.

The conclusion does come way too fast and there's no real time to bask in the finality of things. I think that's a failure of the episode, but on the whole I'm actually OK with that here. Given that the finale opens up with Voyager doing a triumphant sweeping passby of the SF Bay in a huge celebration/homecoming space-parade... showing any of that all over again would be kind of redundant. The beginning of the episode shows (almost) everyone happy, on earth, growing old together. Yeah it's now an alternate timeline, but I think we can assume that things still mostly play out the same, except add Chakotay and Seven to their happy family reunions, and the Borg are now not a threat anymore. It's non-conventional in how they ordered it, but Voyager did get its payoff shots of finally returning home. Just do what I do and pretend that the finale ended with this shot instead of beginning with it:

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  #5861  
Old 03-19-2015, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
Anyway. I'm watching Star Trek VI right now, and it's pretty good!
It's actually my second favorite Trek film Just carries through on its themes so well and is a great send-off for the TOS cast.

As for Voyager's ending, it really is kind of a great microcosm of the series (for good and for bad). It would have been nice to have more epilogue, but then DS9 went with an epilogue final episode and failed pretty hard so maybe they were gunshy about that? They can't all be All Good Things
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  #5862  
Old 03-19-2015, 02:16 PM
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They can't all be All Good Things
I chalk All Good Things up to being a good finale because it was a non-finale/fake ending. In that it spelled the end of the show but wasn't actually the ending of anything. It harkened back to a lot stuff in the show's past, and explored ideas of an unknowable future. But we still got TNG stories after that. TNG ended with the Captain sitting down to play cards with his crew and the promise of more adventures on the horizon. DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise however, had to definitively wrap up ongoing plot threads that defined the entire trajectory of the show. Voyager HAD to end with them returning home. DS9 HAD to end with Sisko fulfilling his role as The Prophet and the Dominion War coming to a close. And Enterprise HAD to end with the founding of the Federation. If you want to talk about the end of the adventures of the crew of the Enterprise D, then Generations is actually the end - and that wasn't a very good sendoff either.

Star Trek VI was the one, lone, brilliant conclusion to anything Star Trek that wrapped up the adventures of a cast/crew. And of course, Rick Berman had to go and ruin that too by roping Kirk into Generations.
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  #5863  
Old 03-20-2015, 06:27 AM
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DS9 HAD to end with Sisko fulfilling his role as The Prophet
I dunno, I think most people would've been happy had they just let all the Bajoran religion stuff fade into the background at the end there. No one complains about the end of the Dominion War sections of the DS9 finale; it's the Pah-Wraiths stuff that was a turn-off. Writers always tend to have a larger appetite for mysticism in their sci-fi than then general audience.

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If you want to talk about the end of the adventures of the crew of the Enterprise, then Nemesis is actually the end - and that wasn't a very good sendoff either.
The ship isn't as important as its crew, after all. But, yeah, Enterprise ended well specifically because you got the sense that they'd happily be journeying on for years and years and we were just forced to leave them for reasons that had nothing to do with the universe.
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  #5864  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:28 AM
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I dunno, I think most people would've been happy had they just let all the Bajoran religion stuff fade into the background at the end there. No one complains about the end of the Dominion War sections of the DS9 finale; it's the Pah-Wraiths stuff that was a turn-off. Writers always tend to have a larger appetite for mysticism in their sci-fi than then general audience.
Yeah, Gul Dukat's whole final season arc was kind of disappointing. No one really cared about a prophet / pah wraith showdown and it just felt like, "Why are you taking up the final episode with this crap?" People also complain about the DS9 finale because so much of it is filler - the flashback memories aren't very well done and the absence of Terry Farrell in any of them is very noticeable.

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The ship isn't as important as its crew, after all. But, yeah, Enterprise ended well specifically because you got the sense that they'd happily be journeying on for years and years and we were just forced to leave them for reasons that had nothing to do with the universe.
I hope you mean TNG, because Enterprise's ending was a big letdown too.

Anyway, I think we can consider the TNG series finale an "ending" even if we later see more adventures of the crew. TOS didn't plan for an ending, so it's nice they got Star Trek VI in, but for TNG the writers knew the series was ending and really came up with a great way to show nostalgia and character growth in the final episode while letting you know the adventures were continuing off screen.
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  #5865  
Old 03-20-2015, 09:08 AM
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Yeah, I was talking about TNG (I think that read "the crew of the Enterprise" or something like that and I edited it into meaninglessness), and, yeah, it was great for all of those reasons.
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  #5866  
Old 03-20-2015, 10:00 AM
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Started Enterprise last night. Real slow start this series...
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  #5867  
Old 03-20-2015, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
I dunno, I think most people would've been happy had they just let all the Bajoran religion stuff fade into the background at the end there. No one complains about the end of the Dominion War sections of the DS9 finale; it's the Pah-Wraiths stuff that was a turn-off. Writers always tend to have a larger appetite for mysticism in their sci-fi than then general audience.
I think it works just fine in Babylon-5, mostly because it's used as a backdrop for the action rather than as the action.
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  #5868  
Old 03-20-2015, 10:40 AM
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I enjoyed the Bajoran religion-as-politics stories a lot more than the Prophets vs. Pah wraiths plot.

In fact I'd say the only weak link in all of this is the Pah wraiths. I actually love the Prophets and think they're one of the neater aliens on any Trek series. Their "evil" counterparts, however...
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  #5869  
Old 03-20-2015, 10:52 AM
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I think it works just fine in Babylon-5, mostly because it's used as a backdrop for the action rather than as the action.
I think it works better there than most (BSG had a LOT of issues with that type of thing, for instance), but even then I usually mentally zoned out whenever that would come up on B5.
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  #5870  
Old 03-20-2015, 11:01 AM
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Wow, Voyager sure has a lot of "Torres is implicitly or explicitly threatened with rape" episodes. I'm not sure how I feel about that!

yes i do; it's awful

I mean, "Blood Fever," where she's threatened with rape by her Vulcan engineering buddy and must then engage him in single combat for the privilege of not being raped by him, is only two episodes away from "Darkling," where the Doctor feels her up and then paralyzes her so he can torture her! Is that really a well the writers needed to keep coming back to?

Also, the Doctor tells the horny Vulcan, who had just assaulted his commanding officer so he could have sex with her, to just wander off back to his quarters unsupervised so he could try to meditate his horniness away. This is so stupid. I am angry at how stupid this is.
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  #5871  
Old 03-20-2015, 11:25 AM
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Started Enterprise last night. Real slow start this series...
I quit halfway through the opening theme.
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  #5872  
Old 03-20-2015, 11:33 AM
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Yeah, Gul Dukat's whole final season arc was kind of disappointing.
Gul Dukat's character really doesn't get much further than it did in "Waltz". He went from nuanced, driven, and yes, even bigoted, to cartoonishly evil after that.
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  #5873  
Old 03-20-2015, 11:54 AM
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I enjoyed the Bajoran religion-as-politics stories a lot more than the Prophets vs. Pah wraiths plot.
This. I think DS9 did a lot of good things with Bajoran politics (which intersected with their religion) and they actually handled Bajoran mysticism pretty well in episodes like Accession and Rapture. It was just once they decided that there needed to be an epic battle between good and evil that things took a turn for the worse. That is, one good thing that Accession and Rapture did was to deal with the conflict between Sisko being a starfleet officer and him being the emissary of the prophets. Once he kind of gave himself over to being the emissary (and they made his actual mother a manifestation of the wormhole aliens) that they stopped telling an interesting story.

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Gul Dukat's character really doesn't get much further than it did in "Waltz". He went from nuanced, driven, and yes, even bigoted, to cartoonishly evil after that.
Right. Waltz was a great way to show how unhinged and broken the events had made Dukat. It was a great epilogue to his character and it's really a shame that they brought him back like they did.
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  #5874  
Old 03-20-2015, 12:04 PM
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Started Enterprise last night. Real slow start this series...
Enterprise has a really uneven first two seasons. Season 2 is better than season 1, but it isn't until season 3 that the show finds its place. I wouldn't recommend skipping the first two seasons at all, but if you're having a hard time slogging through some of the worse s1&2 episodes, you might be better served by skipping the bad/mediocre ones, and only watching the ones that are good or quintessential to the ongoing plot.

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I hope you mean TNG, because Enterprise's ending was a big letdown too.
I have mixed feelings about the ending of Enterprise. Forcing the finale to be through the lens of TNG was a disservice to Enterprise as its own show. But it was actually a pretty OK thing to do if you look at that final episode as not a series finale but a franchise finale. When the episode ends with all the captains saying the preamble to the classic show while their ships do flybys, I got goosebumps.

And also, controversially killing Trip off was a mistake I think, but I don't think it completely came out of nowhere since it was perfectly in character for him to do what he did. And it also provided a really profound moment of clarity for the other characters to react to. Seeing T'Pol grieve gave finality to her character development arc as an enlightened Vulcan who has learned to embrace and balance her emotions. And seeing Archer persevere through this tragedy and go give the most influential and important speech in all of Star Trek lore closes the book on his character development not just as an iron-willed leader of men, but as a mythological hero of the Star Trek Universe. He is basically the George Washington of the Federation, and watching that transformation from wide-eyed and naive astronaut into that man was some of the more satisfying things I've experienced in the franchise.

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Wow, Voyager sure has a lot of "Torres is implicitly or explicitly threatened with rape" episodes. I'm not sure how I feel about that!
It's kinda bad. Not necessarily because I think rape is something that should be off-limits for Star Trek to ever broach or explore, but because I think, as you explained pretty well, that Voyager does a poor job of handling the subject matter. I will say in Voyager's defense however, that if they're going to have a woman deal with those issues, B'Elanna
was probably the best candidate, if only because most of these 'threats' lacked teeth since B'Elanna can take care of herself and put a satisfying beat down on any would-be rapists.
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  #5875  
Old 03-20-2015, 02:17 PM
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I know Paramount was really eager to wrap things up with Deep Space Nine, but I wish they had a chance to reintroduce Verad after Jadzia bit it. You remember Verad, right? He hijacked the station in Invasive Procedures and had temporarily stolen the Dax symbiote, only to be foiled by DS9's skeleton crew. I really, really, REALLY wish they had brought him back for a few episodes as a villain. Could you imagine how great it would be to have Sisko lock horns with a man who was his friend in another lifetime, who knows all his vulnerabilities and wouldn't hesitate to press all his buttons? I think this would have been a more satisfying way to end Dax as a character then to bring in Ezri as a hasty replacement.

But yeah, I'm on board with everyone else saying that the DS9 conclusion was a fizzle. Dukat disguising himself as a Bajoran and teaming up with fellow scumbag Kai Winn just didn't seem believable. It all wrapped up a little too conveniently, too. It was like the producers were eager to seal the show's coffin with nine inch nails, super glue, and reinforced titanium.
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  #5876  
Old 03-20-2015, 02:25 PM
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Have we already had a discussion about when we'll see a new ST show?
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  #5877  
Old 03-20-2015, 02:25 PM
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Have we already had a discussion about when we'll see a new ST show?
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  #5878  
Old 03-20-2015, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Falselogic View Post
Started Enterprise last night. Real slow start this series...
Real slow start, real slow middle, pretty okay toward the end.
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Originally Posted by Kate or Die! View Post
I quit halfway through the opening theme.
Okay, I will say that it's not nearly as bad as the song would have you believe. That song is... UGH. I can't even. Why? HOW? Faith of the heart? Why would anyone even say those words in connection to Star Trek? Let alone get a Rod Stewart song to be the main theme. And then have someone else record a sound-alike version because apparently Rod Stewart isn't watered-down enough. Even Enterprise's horrible ending isn't as stupid a mistake as that song.

Come to think of it, Enterprise is neatly bookended by those two egregious examples of Trek execs having no idea what their show is about or why people watch it.
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  #5879  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:09 PM
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I quit halfway through the opening theme.
Ugh, God. The worst part for me was that my sister and her husband introduced me to the show a few years ago, and when the theme came on, she said with stars in her eyes "Isn't this inspiring?" And I was caught in such a pique of disagreement that I yelled "No!"

(My sister and I have kind of different tastes in media)
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  #5880  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:43 PM
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