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Old 04-16-2017, 11:36 AM
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Default The End of the 2000s, and Other Decades

Continuing the chatter from the movies thread.

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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
But my sense is that there was a bigger cultural shift after 9/11, one that goes pretty deep into the Western mind, that will outlive us all.
the good Doctor observed that "We are At War now -- with somebody -- and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives," and so far he has not been proven wrong.

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Originally Posted by taosterman View Post
Disco basically metamorphosed into house music once the term became instantaneously uncool.
That was a pretty lengthy process, though? You had intermediaries like italo and hi-NRG. Especially in Europe and outside the American pop music mainstream. Disco and its heirs still thrived in the local San Francisco music scene until the AIDS crisis hit.

To AV's remarks about punk, I think you have a turning point in around 1981 when Black Flag launched the Damaged album. About the same time when the Ramones left the mainstream for good.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
If the rise of his Orangeness doesn't cause a massive shift in entertainment like 9/11 did I'll eat my hat*.
Think about how much world culture from '80 forward was a reaction to Ronald Reagan. If you were Generation X or early Millennial in the West, Reagan shaped your cultural education. Either through policy or the sheer mass of his existence.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:51 PM
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Plus we rescued him from the Dragon Ninja!
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:55 PM
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Plus we rescued him from the Dragon Ninja!
That's still a moment in time I can't quite make sense of. It's not like Barack Obama showed up in Street Fighter V.
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
That's still a moment in time I can't quite make sense of. It's not like Barack Obama showed up in Street Fighter V.
No, but he met Spider-Man.
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
That's still a moment in time I can't quite make sense of. It's not like Barack Obama showed up in Street Fighter V.
And yet:

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Old 04-16-2017, 05:07 PM
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Oh yeah, the 2008 Barackathon!

That's one of the other reasons I consider the post-9/11 moment over as of the fall of Lehman. There was such a fervor to put the pain and confusion of the time behind us and move into a better future under the guidance of President Barack H. Obama. And the run from election to inauguration to just before the Obamacare fight started felt wildly different, too. If you were on Obama's side, it was very joyful. If you were against him, you suddenly had a clear enemy to fight. Total 180.
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Old 04-16-2017, 05:36 PM
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Almost like our current circumstances, eh?
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Old 04-16-2017, 06:18 PM
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Almost like our current circumstances, eh?
I feel as though there is some insight to be found in the similarities, though it is beyond me at the moment.
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by The Raider Dr. Jones View Post
That was a pretty lengthy process, though? You had intermediaries like italo and hi-NRG. Especially in Europe and outside the American pop music mainstream. Disco and its heirs still thrived in the local San Francisco music scene until the AIDS crisis hit.
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply that it was a linear evolution. I just think it's interesting that, for all of the cultural disavowing of disco from Demolition Night through the end of the 20th century (disco was fuckin' lame when I was growing up), it's the root of basically every form of Western dance music you can think of.
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taosterman View Post
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply that it was a linear evolution. I just think it's interesting that, for all of the cultural disavowing of disco from Demolition Night through the end of the 20th century (disco was fuckin' lame when I was growing up), it's the root of basically every form of Western dance music you can think of.
Yeah, yeah. You can maybe argue that Kraftwerk is a separate thing, but really I feel like the bulk of their influence was filtered through more club-oriented contemporaries, late disco guys. It took Giorgio Moroder and Patrick Cowley and folks like that to turn early electronic music into something you could shake ass to.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ample Vigour View Post
I feel as though there is some insight to be found in the similarities, though it is beyond me at the moment.
I spent part of tonight trying to write up a cogent response, and it ended up turning into an hourlong screed that even I hated reading, so, this'll be brief:

Elections are almost totally symbolic in several aspects:
  • Nobody has time for substance; the poor literally have no time, the middle-class have the time but won't spend it on you, and the rich have bought their pet politicians already.
  • You need to sell people based on symbols; the idea of electing a Power Mom-turned-Grandma is a good symbol. When she opens her mouth and nothing but policy details or rapier-wit issues forth, that's bad. Policy sells nobody but beltway-types and those who have too much time on their hands (read, us), and rapier-wit only makes yourself and your circle of minions (also, read: us) feel smart and funny. To wit: It's easy to attempt to sell people on the idea of building a wall on the Mexican border, and not so easy to sell them on a twenty-five point healthcare plan presented in excruciating detail.

Where Obama '08 v. Trump '16 figures in is that both presidents were/are viewed as categorically unfit by those who didn't elect him. This, to be fair, is true of any election, but the electorate has also become incredibly polarized across the last twenty years. Just as Democrats widely believed believed in "Change" back in '08, so too do Republicans widely believe in "Make America Great Again". What separates '08 from '16 is that it took the Republicans roughly six months to come to the conclusion that a salted earth strategy was best, and the next eight years followed. Resistance against Trump started Day 0.

The most important thing the GOP did was resist, resist, resist. They didn't have a majority in the House until later on, so they gummed up the works wherever possible and refused to take any responsibility or shit from anyone, and their greatest accomplishment was to make the Dems shoot themselves in the head. That's pretty much what we need to do, until we can regain a majority in either house, and thankfully, the GOP has already shot themselves in every appendage in just the last not even four months.
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:28 AM
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I have often considered the movie Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back as the apex (nadir?) of pre-9/11 pop culture. It revels in disaffected Gen X apathy: the worst problem the movie faces are movie trolls on the internet. It was released less than three weeks before the WTC attacks, and probably could not have been released a moment later.
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Old 04-17-2017, 01:20 PM
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I read a really good series of reblogs on Tumblr about how the disco scene was a safe and important place for LGBT folks, and I think people of color, and how the reactionary hate against it had its roots in bigotry.

I don't have that handy right now so instead here's a great video essay on how 9/11 has been interpreted as a theme in movies, TV, etc., since the event:

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Old 04-17-2017, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
I read a really good series of reblogs on Tumblr about how the disco scene was a safe and important place for LGBT folks, and I think people of color, and how the reactionary hate against it had its roots in bigotry.
Fundamentally the biggest difference between what is called disco and what is called house music -- at least in America -- is the era it was produced in, and thus whether or not the Korg M1 piano shows up in it.

In general the lineage goes something like soul -> funk -> disco -> house progressively getting whiter until you get entire subgenres of house music that are produced almost entirely by white people, somehow. (See also: "tropical house", which is an extremely whitewashed modern take on reggae ideas)
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Old 04-17-2017, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Zef View Post
And yet:

Within the context of this thread, I offer that between 9/11 and the release of Sam Raimi's Spider-Man in 2002, someone at Sony Pictures found the flag dial and turned it up to 11.



I associate 90's Spider-Man with continuity breaking and terrible cover fonts. I associate 00's Spider-Man with flags.
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Old 04-17-2017, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Raider Dr. Jones View Post
the good Doctor observed that "We are At War now -- with somebody -- and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives," and so far he has not been proven wrong.
People keep talking about the War on Terror like this, and it's true that it's outlived post-9/11 culture, but eventually something will have to give. It's just not sustainable.

On another note, someone mentioned memes and social media as a turning point of the culture. The first iPhone came out in 2007. I don't use my smartphone much but even I know they enable meme/Twitter culture like few other things - why get up to boot your computer when you can fire off a sikkburn from the comfort of your own bed?
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:38 PM
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Keep in mind that the Cold War lasted from VE Day until the ussr fell. We are very good at holding onto a war.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:43 AM
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That's a good point, although I still don't see a War on Terror lasting 70 years. Another decade and change, sure, but even in the Cold War we weren't occupying two countries at once and bombing others for its whole duration. If the military doesn't realize on its own how bad of an idea it is, something else will probably force it to.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:48 AM
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Uh, I hate to break it to you, but we occupied West Germany (along with the rest of NATO, an org founded at the US's insistence) from the end of WWII onwards, and South Korea from the start of that war. Also Japan for a brief period. Then, at various points in that span we created bases in various countries to expand our military reach for various concessions and bribes for the host country if not outright intimidation. There's a whole long and sordid history of grey and black US military OPs throughout the non NA/Russian chunks of the globe.
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trar View Post
That's a good point, although I still don't see a War on Terror lasting 70 years.
For what it's worth the Koreas declared war 64 years ago. They've signed an armistice but legally they're still at war. Stupid shit can last a damn long time.
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Old 04-18-2017, 08:04 AM
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My point is that the WoT is burning brighter and faster than the Cold War generally did, and that's putting stress on an already stressed 2017 America. We weren't fighting insurgencies in Korea or Germany, either. I do agree the military apparatus is stubborn though.
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Old 04-18-2017, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
I read a really good series of reblogs on Tumblr about how the disco scene was a safe and important place for LGBT folks, and I think people of color, and how the reactionary hate against it had its roots in bigotry.
There's a lot of literature written on the topic. Just googling "disco sucks" brings up a number of articles examining the backlash against it.
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Old 04-18-2017, 08:23 AM
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It's pretty telling that the records people brought to burn at Disco Demolition Night weren't just disco records, but anything by black artists. The DJ who organized the event claims people are reading too far into it and he was just reacting against the ubiquity of the music, but it's hard to deny that it exposed something really ugly. I listened to a podcast interview with a black usher from that White Sox game, and he was terrified for his life.
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Old 04-18-2017, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trar View Post
My point is that the WoT is burning brighter and faster than the Cold War generally did, and that's putting stress on an already stressed 2017 America. We weren't fighting insurgencies in Korea or Germany, either. I do agree the military apparatus is stubborn though.
We didn't fight insurgencies in Germany and Korea but we spent decades fighting them in South America, Africa, and Southeast Asia. Army Special Forces was theoretically organized to start up La Resistance in a soviet occupation of Western Europe, but they spent most of their time teaching anti communist brute squads in the global south.
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Old 04-18-2017, 08:57 AM
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There's an interesting guide here showing the evolution of various electronic music genres.
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:15 AM
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There's an interesting guide here showing the evolution of various electronic music genres.
I'm going to be reading this for weeks, thanks for the link.
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:41 AM
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There's an interesting guide here showing the evolution of various electronic music genres.
Wow, ton of info there. But man, that interface needs to go into the museum of web design circa 2000.
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
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Wow, ton of info there. But man, that interface needs to go into the museum of web design circa 2000.
I assume that's why it's in the thread?!
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Old 04-18-2017, 10:10 AM
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It's still startling to find a piece of web design that so firmly puts me in the mindset of turning on the 75lb CRT monitor, waiting for the degausser to finish shaking the lines of the majestic 800x600 resolution, hearing the shrill chirps of the 28.8k modem as it called into the information superhighway.
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