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  #781  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Adrenaline View Post
I still think treating HYDRA as a direct Nazi equivalent is a bit of a stretch.
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There are Nazis in Hydra but there actions in essentially every story besides ones set during WWII have almost nothing to do with Nazism. They're generic evil terrorist guys. Marvel has Sons of the Serpent when they actually want to do white nationalist villains.
Yeah. Hydra is basically Cobra from G.I. Joe. (Or more accurately, Cobra was originally a stand-in for Hydra.)
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  #782  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:18 AM
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It's also very tacky to come up with this plotline when "Nazi Cap" hasn't even paid off yet (he's still a double-agent for Hydra, at last count) and the current political climate makes it incredibly tasteless.
Hydra Cap is the driving thrust of Marvel's next big Event, Secret Empire, which has not yet started publication. Hydra Magneto is on the variant cover for Secret Empire #5.
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  #783  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:27 AM
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I didn't say they don't have Nazi ties - they clearly do. But while guys like Red Skull and Strucker are still around, over the years other characters with their own unique backgrounds have also been used to represent Hydra. They represent basic world-conquering evil intentions.

Zef, I think Secret Empire represents the culmination of the Hydra Cap storyline. I'll be shocked if it doesn't end with him rejecting them and becoming a good guy again.
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  #784  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:33 AM
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Hydra Cap is the driving thrust of Marvel's next big Event, Secret Empire, which has not yet started publication. Hydra Magneto is on the variant cover for Secret Empire #5.
Maybe SE #2-4 will reveal Luke Cage as a secret KKK agent, and Miles Morales joining ICE.
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  #785  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:55 AM
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I know this isn't the first time we discussed this, and I don't want to seem like I'm dismissive of any concerns. I just don't understand why it's okay for a comics publisher to have a fictional evil organization with ties to a real anti-Semitic regime, but this isn't.
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  #786  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:59 AM
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Because a Jewish Holocaust survivor would probably never work with a Nazi-descended terrorist group, even if said survivor is a villain/terrorist himself?
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  #787  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:02 AM
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We have no context for this twist at all. Characters do all kinds of things in comics they normally wouldn't do because they're comics and their reality is constantly changing.
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  #788  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Kishi View Post
Yeah. Hydra is basically Cobra from G.I. Joe. (Or more accurately, Cobra was originally a stand-in for Hydra.)
Even more accurately: Cobra was originally a stand-in for Hydra, but replaced Hydra's explicit and specific historical Nazism with more fantastical cartoonishly evil terrorists.

A comparison between he two only emphasizes the degree to which Nazism is central to Hydra, because it is not an element of the Cobra.

Hydra was retconned to be millions of years old and predate Nazism because it's a superhero comic book, but that still leaves an organization that in its modern incarnation was shaped and headed by Nazis. An organization run by Nazis is a Nazi organization.

In contrast, Cobra was not shaped and headed by Nazis. That's a significant difference!
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  #789  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:09 AM
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We have no context for this twist at all. Characters do all kinds of things in comics they normally wouldn't do because they're comics and their reality is constantly changing.
Comics also don't exist in a vacuum. Both DC and Marvel got their start as a response to social illness and as a voice for idealism and change. And, recently, at least Marvel has had many of its creators shift back to that model.

In an era when anti-Semitism, racism, xenophobia, and intolerance of the "other" are all on the rise in real life, to say that having a Holocaust survivor aiding a Nazi org is "tone deaf" is quite an understatement.

Being fiction does not excuse them from their bad taste.
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  #790  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:11 AM
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We have no context for this twist at all. Characters do all kinds of things in comics they normally wouldn't do because they're comics and their reality is constantly changing.
The best comics treat their characters like actual living, breathing, people (or a reasonable abstraction thereof). I mean, sure, Secret Empire is probably going to be yet another shitty event miniseries but that doesn't negate my point either. For as much as comics have their own internal logic, they do play in the same ballpark as reality, and reality kind of points out how highly unlikely that turn of events would actually be. And as far as I know, Secret Empire isn't being painted as some global/cosmic catastrophe in the making, just a political one. Looking at things that way, Magneto should be the guy Hydra-Steve's opposition uneasily joins forces with.

Anything else doesn't really pass the "what would an actual person with this background do" smell test.
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  #791  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:27 AM
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I do question the timing of the Hydra Cap storyline, and it seems like the story itself could have been handled better (I haven't read it, but I haven't heard anyone rave about it). I think it's shortsighted to call for someone's firing before it's even been told, though.
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  #792  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:31 AM
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Even more accurately: Cobra was originally a stand-in for Hydra, but replaced Hydra's explicit and specific historical Nazism with more fantastical cartoonishly evil terrorists.

A comparison between he two only emphasizes the degree to which Nazism is central to Hydra, because it is not an element of the Cobra.
Nazism has not been central to Hydra in what I've read. SHIELD are the cops, and Hydra are the robbers. I feel like people taking the Nazi connection for granted are mainly familiar with the movies.


Quote:
Hydra was retconned to be millions of years old and predate Nazism because it's a superhero comic book, but that still leaves an organization that in its modern incarnation was shaped and headed by Nazis. An organization run by Nazis is a Nazi organization.

In contrast, Cobra was not shaped and headed by Nazis. That's a significant difference!
The Red Skull has associated with them, but he's more often off on his own. He's not emblematic of the organization. Baron Strucker is more so but has spent a lot of the organization's publication history dead or so far behind the scenes as to be invisible. The most recognizable Hydra leader in my mind is Viper, who doesn't evoke Nazism at all.

Nazis are just not an association that comes to mind when I think of Hydra, unless I'm thinking of the movies.
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  #793  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:45 AM
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It's still there though.
My take on the X-Men stuff I've read is that there's a lot that's driven by either rebelling against or embracing Claremont's takes on the characters. Reading his run makes this super-clear, as he takes Not-The-Avengers-or-FF VS Not-Dr-Doom and slowly layers in progressively more complicated characterization. Magneto goes from kidnapping the X-Men from a circus in his second appearance to a torrid love affair with a human woman on a tropical island with lots of angst and soul-searching. And subsequent material ping-pongs Magneto back and forth between these two extremes.

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Nazism has not been central to Hydra in what I've read. SHIELD are the cops, and Hydra are the robbers. I feel like people taking the Nazi connection for granted are mainly familiar with the movies.

The Red Skull has associated with them, but he's more often off on his own. He's not emblematic of the organization. Baron Strucker is more so but has spent a lot of the organization's publication history dead or so far behind the scenes as to be invisible. The most recognizable Hydra leader in my mind is Viper, who doesn't evoke Nazism at all.

Nazis are just not an association that comes to mind when I think of Hydra, unless I'm thinking of the movies.
This really depends on what you're reading. There's some stuff where Hydra is We Needed Bad Guys And Liked Green And Gold, and there's some stuff where Hydra is Nazis And That Matters.
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  #794  
Old 03-07-2017, 03:11 PM
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  #795  
Old 03-07-2017, 03:16 PM
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They're both genocidal villains, but considering Skully advocated for the extermination of Mags' family, I don't think Mags will buy that "We are the same so we should team up" argument.
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  #796  
Old 03-07-2017, 03:23 PM
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As well he didn't.


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  #797  
Old 03-07-2017, 04:56 PM
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Captain America was created by Jews. Magneto was created by Jews as a Jew. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were created by Jews as Jews with Roma heritage. Hydra and their Nazi founders were written by Jews. The industry was created by Jews. Stories change over time but you can't remove their historic origins and why they were created. Constantly trying to remove their heritage, from Age of Ultron to Hydra-Cap to now this is just antisemitism at this point. Especially in this day and age. Especially when you talk to actual Jewish readers. Especially from Nick Spencer, who went on about "bluh freedom of speech bluh" about Richard Spencer.

Anyway, yeah man, Magneto

Model Hydra Agent right there
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  #798  
Old 03-07-2017, 05:25 PM
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Are there actually any major, canon(ish) Marvel stories involving either Hydra or Nazis that really have anything to do with those things that we all really don't like about Nazis? Y'know- targeted oppression and killing of Jewish people and other minorities?

I'm not expert, but I don't recall Red Skull being anything more than a maniacal asshole- a Dr Doom with no real pathos. Likewise, I think the insistence that the use of Nazis and Fascists in old Marvel stories was some kind of socially conscious commentary that should therefore be respected is really a stretch. Nazis and Fascists are now, and have been for decades, generic stand-ins for badness much like Evil Kings, Wizards, Witches, Dragons, etc. They're bad and we can all recognize it immediately via symbols we are acculturated to. Comic book Nazis and Fascists don't need real motivations because they're scarcely characters. They were also introduced at a time when people were maybe less sensitive about these things culturally and were not so inclined to interpret world events with nuance. Can you name any non-cringey superhero Muslim terrorism story? God, of course not. Times have changed.

If every Jewish person in the world says "hey, I'm offended by this" I guess I'll learn to live with it, but really who cares? Is someone really that offended that Magneto, a character who's appeared in thousands of stories over 50 years is acting too out of character in a story about generic sci-fi terrorists? If you ask me, which nobody is, everyone is projecting too much psychic Freudian guilt onto everything these days. Quit living in fear of a culture obsessed with shaming and enjoy the damn comic book.
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  #799  
Old 03-07-2017, 05:43 PM
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I think the insistence that the use of Nazis and Fascists in old Marvel stories was some kind of socially conscious commentary that should therefore be respected is really a stretch. Nazis and Fascists are now, and have been for decades, generic stand-ins for badness much like Evil Kings, Wizards, Witches, Dragons, etc. They're bad and we can all recognize it immediately via symbols we are acculturated to.
Kirby and Simon started making Captain America comics before the United States joined World War Two. Nazis weren't yet a caricature of the most evil kind of person you could think of: They were tangible, at the height of power, in the process of steamrolling Europe, and trying hard to influence America from the inside. And depicting a symbol of America socking Hitler in the jaw sat poorly with all kinds of Nazi sympathizers and "America first" propagandists. Kirby and Simon got so many threats over it they ended up with the NYPD patrolling their block in shifts to see to their safety. And they didn't stop. They were absolutely taking a political stance.
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  #800  
Old 03-07-2017, 05:57 PM
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Yeah, but still. Those stories aren't about genocidal tragedies, they're about punching Hitler in the face. They were published alongside both yellow terror stories and white savior jungle stories.
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  #801  
Old 03-07-2017, 06:17 PM
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Also here's the less well-remembered Captain America #13 where good ol' Cap punches a slant-eyed, clawed Tojo in the face

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  #802  
Old 03-07-2017, 08:26 PM
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"There's nothing actually political to Captain America stories"? The entire prompting event is named after a group with a single burst of relevance: a direct analogy to Watergate, complete with an arc about Captain America losing his faith until he realizes America's ideals can be promoted regardless of its government's (and also a Nixon stand-in suicide). There's also the actual immediate subject matter of yet another doomed contemporary Marvel event and said Nick Spencer's Captain America books being rather unsubtle about their political stand-in contents.





There's an obvious artist's statement to the ongoing books on how Americana and patriotism and what-not were co-opted by fascism (Hydra-Cap, it is worth remembering, is in the current story a literal re-writing of the past set up by the Red Skull). Constant mediocre superhero infighting events were analogized into left-wing infighting. There's been a black Captain America for years but outside of the text nobody cares about him and and within the text he's been preoccupied with systemic racism and a lack of political legitimacy. So on and so forth. Spencer is set on analogy-laden cynical commentary without any sense of insight or comedy or hope to his stories (see mocking social justice Tumblr), and while it's easily trivializing to want positive morality-plays from mass media it'd also be a little motivating those who have to actually live through said shit politics for pop-culture to be on their side (sooner than the summer after an election, at least). Then one just has to mix poorly-written controversy-bait event twists as one always does (i.e. Magneto working with Hydra when Hydra-Cap mocks mutant acceptance, possibly actually following through with the foretelling of the black Spider-man publically murdering Hydra-Cap in Washington) and then it loses the supposed comic book fun too.

All fiction of a given weight carries its own unspoken politics, intentionally or not. Fascists being read as non-political through oversaturation in fiction helped create the cultural dissonance that has allowed actual fucking Nazis some actual footing.

Incidentally, better comics trying to use the old strengths of comics while acknowledging anything of a miserable current political environment would be, like, U.S.Avengers.







Last edited by Tatterdemalion; 03-07-2017 at 08:44 PM.
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  #803  
Old 03-07-2017, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatterdemalion View Post
Nick Spencer's Captain America books being rather unsubtle about their political stand-in contents.
Yes. Nick Spencer wants it both ways here. He wants to write a story invoking Nazism, while shirking the responsibilities that entails.

Depending on who is writing them, Hydra can either be generic Cobra bad guys, or they can be literal Nazis. Spencer wants Hydra to be Nazis, but he doesn't want deal with what it means to write Hydra as Nazis.
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  #804  
Old 03-07-2017, 08:44 PM
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"Incidentally, better comics trying to use the old strengths of comics towards a miserable current political environment would be, like, U.S.Avengers. Why isn't Ewing writing this event? Why does Marvel insist on constant events of little substance that has let DC jump ahead of them through Rebirth?
And before U.S.Avengers, New Avengers was pretty political too.

Marvel's output in the '60s never shied away from politics either; Kirby was at least aiming for feminist ideas in an otherwise very patriarchal media environment. (Sue Storm and Sif, among others) And Lee uses Reed Richards for some pointed political commentary with some frequency.

And it's not like the politics stopped with Kirby's departure in the '70s... But the parade of bumbling but well-meaning Latin American dictators who need to be saved from conniving leftist revolutionaries shows a slightly different slant.

Superheroes are explicitly political.
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  #805  
Old 03-08-2017, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatterdemalion View Post
"There's nothing actually political to Captain America stories"?
This isn't at all what I said so I'm not sure why you're using a quote.

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Superheroes are explicitly political.
Kirby/Lee Sue Storm as an example of feminism? Now I've heard everything.
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  #806  
Old 03-08-2017, 04:49 AM
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The Kirby Sue Storm was an attempt at something like feminism, often written/rewritten by Lee to essentially be the opposite.
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  #807  
Old 03-08-2017, 06:55 AM
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Got ta say that Magneto locking Red Skull in a dark pit is metal as heck.
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  #808  
Old 03-08-2017, 06:56 AM
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I grew up with a Jewish background in a very Christian small town and Magneto was pretty much the only Jewish character I had in my comics and Saturday morning cartoons, so I hope it is understandable why I might find him working with Nazi stand-ins upsetting even if I haven't been reading a lot of comics lately.
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  #809  
Old 03-08-2017, 09:50 AM
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Kirby/Lee Sue Storm as an example of feminism? Now I've heard everything.
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The Kirby Sue Storm was an attempt at something like feminism, often written/rewritten by Lee to essentially be the opposite.
Even leaving aside Kirby Without Words, during the Kirby/Lee era, Sue's definitely a fumbling attempt at introducing feminist ideas into a fundamentally chauvinistic medium. She's a full member of the team, not an adjunct or mascot. Any given issue will generally be set up so each team member's powers are pivotal exactly once, and Sue only rarely gets short-changed. And her contributions are through her own unique set of powers, rather than "Wonder Woman joins in the lads in giving the bads a punch".

There's also the symbolism of her contributions being literally invisible, despite saving the day just as often as her male teammates' flashier powers. And that goes double once she gets her invisible force-fields. She's also the only FF member whose powers aren't totally upstaged by Crystal's inhuman elementalism.

And shortly after Kirby leaves Marvel, she gets purged from the team. Pretty much as soon as her outstanding plot arcs are wrapped up, in fact.
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  #810  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:17 AM
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Well, IvX ended about where I expected- Emma Frost heel turn (with Inhuman programmed Sentinel squad and stupid new bondage outfit with adult Cyclops' X mask) and no more Terrigen (clouds or otherwise) on the Earth. Long story short, X-Men are back on top and Inhumans are kneecapped in regards to their place in the world in a similar way the X-Men have been for 2-3 years.
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