The Return of Talking Time

Go Back   The Return of Talking Time > Talking about media > Talking about meatspace games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-18-2010, 09:51 AM
benjibot's Avatar
benjibot benjibot is offline
Super Nerd
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The fictional city of Chicago
Posts: 2,016
Default My what a big deck you have! - Talking about TCGs

Hey guys, let's talk about Magic! Or any other TCG, CCG, or any other thing where you assemble randomly collected thingamabobs.

I just got back into Magic because some friends of a friend have a regular game in a local bar. I haven't actually played them yet, nor built a deck, but I did play some at C2E2 (a comic convention in Chicago).

Yesterday I got to play the prerelease of Rise of the Eldrazi and I have mixed feelings. Mostly, because I got steamrolled and I seem to be a sore loser. Also some of the dudes there were kind of shitty (and smelled like farts).

The Eldrazi cards themselves can really be a bummer. They cost a lot, but all colorless and there are all sorts of ways to generate a lot of colorless mana real fast. Every one of them forces an opponent to sacrifice a number of permanents every damned time they attack. If your opponent pulls out one and you don't you lose real fast.

I'm sure there are ways around them, but I'm not really a good player.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-18-2010, 09:57 AM
Alpha Werewolf's Avatar
Alpha Werewolf Alpha Werewolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjibot View Post
Hey guys, let's talk about Magic! Or any other TCG, CCG, or any other thing where you assemble randomly collected thingamabobs.

I just got back into Magic because some friends of a friend have a regular game in a local bar. I haven't actually played them yet, nor built a deck, but I did play some at C2E2 (a comic convention in Chicago).

Yesterday I got to play the prerelease of Rise of the Eldrazi and I have mixed feelings. Mostly, because I got steamrolled and I seem to be a sore loser. Also some of the dudes there were kind of shitty (and smelled like farts).

The Eldrazi cards themselves can really be a bummer. They cost a lot, but all colorless and there are all sorts of ways to generate a lot of colorless mana real fast. Every one of them forces an opponent to sacrifice a number of permanents every damned time they attack. If your opponent pulls out one and you don't you lose real fast.

I'm sure there are ways around them, but I'm not really a good player.
I want - nay, I DEMAND - to see your pool and deck.

My Prerelease is going to be monday next week, by the way.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-18-2010, 11:06 AM
Wolf's Avatar
Wolf Wolf is offline
Ancient Nameless Hero
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,722
Default

I played Magic a lot when I was in high school and for my first year in college. A lot of people in my Boy Scout troop played it, and I picked it up because it looked like a lot of fun. When I was in college (community college, but still), I spent a fair amount of the time I was supposed to have been in class playing Magic in one of the student lounges. That just might be why I had so much trouble with college Algebra.

College was also where I stopped playing Magic, back when Weatherlight was the big thing. This was partly because I could no longer keep up with the new cards and abilities. Every time somebody played something, I had to stop everything, read the card, and try to think about all the ramifications of its powers. And since I didn't have the money to keep myself current with the expansions, I just decided to get out of it altogether, since I didn't have a group to play older expansions against. Also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjibot View Post
...Also some of the dudes there were kind of shitty (and smelled like farts).
From my own (admittedly limited) experience, there is a certain contingent of recent Magic players can be described this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjibot View Post
I'm sure there are ways around them, but I'm not really a good player.
This is me. I tend to lose a lot more than I win. I'm not a very skilled strategic thinker, sadly, which is also the reason I really like strategy RPGs in theory, but never actually get anywhere in them.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-18-2010, 11:11 AM
shivam's Avatar
shivam shivam is offline
gatchapon 3*
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Mateo
Posts: 24,009
Default

i'm an obsessive collector type, and i wasted a lot of money on ccgs in highschool and college, but now, i get my fix from games like dominion and mtg on xbla.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-18-2010, 11:30 AM
chady's Avatar
chady chady is offline
jiggery-pokery
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 709
Default

I used to spend entirely too much money playing Magic back when I was in High School. I think the last set that I really bought a lot of boosters for was Tempest. Sometimes I miss it; every now and then it would be nice to sit down with somebody and draft a couple of starters and some boosters.

About the time that I got out was when my friends started playing the Pokemon CCG. Which I thought kind of sucked (at least compared to the videogame and Magic, anyway).

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjibot View Post
I'm sure there are ways around them, but I'm not really a good player.
Destruction of permanents used to be hella easy. Barring that, there's probably a way to keep them tapped as long as there are only one or two. But that gets into dangerous territory: my group used to have decks specifically set up to counter other people's better decks, and decks to counter those decks, and that just descended into madness.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-18-2010, 11:38 AM
Wolf's Avatar
Wolf Wolf is offline
Ancient Nameless Hero
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,722
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chady View Post
About the time that I got out was when my friends started playing the Pokemon CCG. Which I thought kind of sucked (at least compared to the videogame and Magic, anyway).
The Pokemon CCG was actually pretty all right, as I remember it. A bunch of my friends when I was in college were working at Toys 'R' Us when it first came out, and they were required to learn how to play for the league their store sponsored. I started playing it because it was what everyone I knew was playing. I went into it with some trepidation, but it actually turned out to be a pretty fun game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chady View Post
But that gets into dangerous territory: my group used to have decks specifically set up to counter other people's better decks, and decks to counter those decks, and that just descended into madness.
Oh, and there's another reason I got out of Magic.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-18-2010, 11:46 AM
Alpha Werewolf's Avatar
Alpha Werewolf Alpha Werewolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chady View Post
Destruction of permanents used to be hella easy. Barring that, there's probably a way to keep them tapped as long as there are only one or two.
Still is. Much easier than before, in fact - Invasion block is the last enviornment to compare to today's removal. However, in Rise of the Eldrazi limited, the focus is more on building up your defenses with Defenders and buffing up your creatures (Leveling and Totem Armour), or on the flip side getting fast mana into the huge Eldrazi.

EDIT:

Quote:
But that gets into dangerous territory: my group used to have decks specifically set up to counter other people's better decks, and decks to counter those decks, and that just descended into madness.
That's the most beatiful thing in Magic! When somebody adapts their deck to beat yours, and you do the same in response to that, you have a healthy multiplayer enviornment - as long as it doesn't become an arms race to who comboes off first.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-18-2010, 12:17 PM
Rosencrantz's Avatar
Rosencrantz Rosencrantz is offline
Renegade Game Councelor
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NorCal
Posts: 4,610
Default

I never got into any TCGs, but some of them look pretty fun. One of the reasons I never started was because my younger brother got really into Magic and then Star Wars back in the 90's. His best friend was in 4-H, and every year he raised a pig and sold it at the county fair for hundreds of dollars... more money than any 10-12 year old kid should have for spending. (Why his parents never made him save it was beyond me.) So, my brother would get into a TCG, then his friend would start playing, then his friend would get his money and buy a bunch of super rare, expensive cards for his deck, and obliterate my brother, who would then quit playing.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-18-2010, 12:29 PM
Wolfgang's Avatar
Wolfgang Wolfgang is offline
borgn
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fooboomagoo
Posts: 28,105
Default

Now that I'm getting the hang of how the game works I'm finding I'm actually pretty good at it. At least, I'm able to regularly hold my own against a group of people who've been playing together since the early days of the game.

Right now my preferred deck is a white/black mix with vampires and the Kor, who are fucking awesome. I could probably do well by paring my deck down to 40-50 cards and focusing on either one color or the other, but I love how the two work together.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-18-2010, 12:29 PM
Alpha Werewolf's Avatar
Alpha Werewolf Alpha Werewolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosencrantz View Post
I never got into any TCGs, but some of them look pretty fun. One of the reasons I never started was because my younger brother got really into Magic and then Star Wars back in the 90's. His best friend was in 4-H, and every year he raised a pig and sold it at the county fair for hundreds of dollars... more money than any 10-12 year old kid should have for spending. (Why his parents never made him save it was beyond me.) So, my brother would get into a TCG, then his friend would start playing, then his friend would get his money and buy a bunch of super rare, expensive cards for his deck, and obliterate my brother, who would then quit playing.
In Magic, it's far harder (and more expensive) to make a super-broken deck, and far cheaper to fight decks that aren't.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-18-2010, 12:31 PM
Alpha Werewolf's Avatar
Alpha Werewolf Alpha Werewolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Now that I'm getting the hang of how the game works I'm finding I'm actually pretty good at it. At least, I'm able to regularly hold my own against a group of people who've been playing together since the early days of the game.

Right now my preferred deck is a white/black mix with vampires and the Kor, who are fucking awesome. I could probably do well by paring my deck down to 40-50 cards and focusing on either one color or the other, but I love how the two work together.
If you're not playing Limited (Sealed or Draft), it's common practice to play with a minimum of 60 cards. That's the minimum in almost all constructed formats.

If you fellas want to, I can put my RL decks on Magic WorkStation and play against yours. I'm pretty good - at least, good enough to battle with the top tier of the store I go to.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-18-2010, 01:22 PM
Thraeg's Avatar
Thraeg Thraeg is offline
Mad Overlord
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,779
Default

I played a ton of TCGs back in junior high and high school, as my group of friends started with Magic and then quickly branched out into Star Wars, Battletech, Wyvern, Hyborian Gates, and especially Middle Earth: The Wizards, which I still think is the best TCG ever. I drifted away for a while, but then started up with the World of Warcraft TCG when it came out, since starting fresh with a new game seemed more attractive than trying to catch up on years and years of Magic. It's a lot of fun, especially in sealed and draft formats, which have always been my favorites.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-18-2010, 01:44 PM
shivam's Avatar
shivam shivam is offline
gatchapon 3*
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Mateo
Posts: 24,009
Default

anyone wanna play magic on xbla?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-18-2010, 01:47 PM
Torgo's Avatar
Torgo Torgo is offline
We Hardly Knew Ye
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Valley Isle
Posts: 9,718
Default

I bought a boat load of the old Decipher Star Wars CCG back in the day, but I never once got to play. Not once. I had decks built and everything. It's a shame too, since it seemed like it might be really fun (though the rules seemed a complicated cluster). Besides, any game where I could, in theory (however unlikely), have Jar Jar Binks kill Emperor Palpatine and build a squad of Ewoks or Jawas led by Mace Windu to fight Darth Maul is a-okay in my book.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-18-2010, 01:51 PM
Sanagi's Avatar
Sanagi Sanagi is offline
who's she
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: fairbanks, alaska
Posts: 10,678
Default

No game has ever taught me more about games than Magic.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-18-2010, 02:32 PM
Destil's Avatar
Destil Destil is offline
TARANTUL
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 20,891
Default

I play magic on and off a lot. A bunch of guys from work have a once a month sealed deck get-together night, usually we each just get 8 packs every few months, build a deck and play with those.

My real love has always been limited, especially draft. I've most likely poured a few thousand dollars into Magic Online over the years, almost entirely for drafting.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-18-2010, 06:45 PM
benjibot's Avatar
benjibot benjibot is offline
Super Nerd
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The fictional city of Chicago
Posts: 2,016
Default

The Eldrazi prerelease was a 6 booster pack game. I honestly couldn't tell you what was in my deck because everything got scattered about on the way home. I played white/green the first two matches and then quickly switched out to white/red for the last one, which actually went a bit better despite being done in no time at all.

Cool cards I picked up:

Guul Draz Assassin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gull Draz Assassin
(B)
Creature — Vampire Assassin
Level up: (1)(B) 1/1
Level 2-3 (B),(T): Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn. 2/2
Level 4+ (B),(T): Target creature gets -4/-4 until end of turn. 4/4
Looking back at this card, maybe I should have played black. I didn't get many other black creatures so I didn't look too carefully at him initially but what a brutal card. There's an awful lot he can outright kill with one black mana. He's also shiny!

Awakening Zone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakening Zone
(2)(G)
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a 0/1 colorless Eldrazi Spawn creature token onto the battlefield. It has "Sacrifice this creature: Add (1) to your mana pool."
Conquering Manticore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conquering Manticore
(4)(R)(R)
Creature — Manticore
5/5
Flying
When Conquering Manticore enters the battlefield, gain control of target creature an opponent controls until end of turn. Untap that creature. It gains haste until end of turn.
Lord of Shatterskull Pass

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Shatterskull Pass
(3)(R)
Creature — Minotaur Shaman
3/3
Level up (1)(R)
Level 1-5 6/6
Level 6+ Whenever Lord of Shatterskull Pass attacks, it deals 6 damage to each creature defending player controls. 6/6
I also really like Goblin Arsonist. He's a 1/1 goblin that will (nearly) always do at least 1 damage.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-18-2010, 09:52 PM
Alpha Werewolf's Avatar
Alpha Werewolf Alpha Werewolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjibot View Post
The Eldrazi prerelease was a 6 booster pack game. I honestly couldn't tell you what was in my deck because everything got scattered about on the way home. I played white/green the first two matches and then quickly switched out to white/red for the last one, which actually went a bit better despite being done in no time at all.

Cool cards I picked up:

Guul Draz Assassin



Looking back at this card, maybe I should have played black. I didn't get many other black creatures so I didn't look too carefully at him initially but what a brutal card. There's an awful lot he can outright kill with one black mana. He's also shiny!

Awakening Zone



Conquering Manticore



Lord of Shatterskull Pass



I also really like Goblin Arsonist. He's a 1/1 goblin that will (nearly) always do at least 1 damage.
I don't know what the rest of your green cards were, but unless your green was horrible and your white astounding, you should've probably ran a green/red concotion. Awakening Zone is a BOMB.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-18-2010, 09:55 PM
shivam's Avatar
shivam shivam is offline
gatchapon 3*
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Mateo
Posts: 24,009
Default

man, eldrazi just doesnt look like magic anymore.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-18-2010, 11:54 PM
Alixsar's Avatar
Alixsar Alixsar is offline
The Shogun of Harlem
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Harlem
Posts: 23,644
Default

You can level stuff up now? That's...odd. I know they've done some similar things in the past but not like this.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-19-2010, 12:02 AM
Mr. J's Avatar
Mr. J Mr. J is offline
MassiveOnlineBunnyArena
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,338
Default

mmm, Magic. Bejibot, you probably should have gone Black, Red depending on the rest of your stuff. That assassin wins you the game if they don't do anything about it in limited.

I went to my prerelease on Saturday and got an awful pool. I 1-3-drop. I ended up with some horrible G/R/W deck that didn't do too well.

On the standard front though, I'm looking at B/U polymoprh and I think it'll be an absolute house.

Land
10x Island
6x Swamp
4x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Drowned Catacomb

Creatures
2x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells
4x Deprive
4x See Beyond
4x Ponder
4x Polymorph
2x Negate
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Wind Zendikon
4x Corrupted Zendikon
2x Consume the Meek
2x Agony Warp
2x Diabolic Tutor

Sideboard
2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Spell Pierce
3x Flashfreeze
4x Duress
2x Agony Warp

It's super cheap to put together (I got my friends promo and mine so that's the two I need) and does quite well from testing on MWS.

Also, I spend way too much time and money on magic, but I love it too much to quit.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-19-2010, 12:10 AM
Destil's Avatar
Destil Destil is offline
TARANTUL
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 20,891
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shivam View Post
man, eldrazi just doesnt look like magic anymore.
People have been saying this for years, and I finally agree. Level up cards have really messy and overly complex frames and I just don't think the mechanic is 'clean' enough to be viable at common.

Then again I haven't played it yet so what do I know.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-19-2010, 05:18 AM
Odin's Avatar
Odin Odin is offline
Clickclickclickclick
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgo View Post
I bought a boat load of the old Decipher Star Wars CCG back in the day, but I never once got to play. Not once. I had decks built and everything. It's a shame too, since it seemed like it might be really fun (though the rules seemed a complicated cluster). Besides, any game where I could, in theory (however unlikely), have Jar Jar Binks kill Emperor Palpatine and build a squad of Ewoks or Jawas led by Mace Windu to fight Darth Maul is a-okay in my book.
I played a crapton of Star Wars CCG in high school. I still have all the cards at the back of my closet somewhere, my collector and Star Wars geek won't give them up even though I haven't built a deck since freshman year of college. I stopped playing the game when they brought in Episode I and said "screw timeline concerns!" Then as I recall WotC yanked the rights out from under Decipher and made some crappy TCG with even crappier CG art using the Star Wars license.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-19-2010, 06:43 AM
Kirin's Avatar
Kirin Kirin is offline
Not a Beer
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 19,479
Default

I played a bunch of Magic in the mid-nineties (so, Revised/Fourth, plus Dark/Homelands/FEmpires/IceAge/Chronicles). Had a pretty decent Red/Green deck, though it was built with more of an eye towards fun than being seriously competitive. I remember messing with Thallids for a while, but I think I weeded them out later.

Lately, though, I've been thinking it's time to sell cards. The dual lands and a handful of other rares from Revised era I'm sitting on alone around worth probably the better part of a grand. And I should be able to get several hundred more out of the $5-$10 cards scattered through the rest. The trick is to not get sucked back into wanting to play and keep them all while I'm trying to catalog stuff for sale, though... But I've already got some deals in the works for after I have things sorted.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-19-2010, 07:15 AM
Nicholai's Avatar
Nicholai Nicholai is offline
I like Starman.
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 2,561
Default

I played Magic pretty heavily from around Fourth Edition (though I did have a bit of Revised as I started just when Revised was becoming hard to find but 4th hadn't come out yet) to Invasion. I stopped then when I came to college, but picked it up again for a couple years around the tail end of Kamigawa/beginning of Ravnica and stopped again at Lorwyn.

I love TCGs in general and tried just about any I could find, but in the end Magic just doesn't work for me anymore. Largely because I don't have a playgroup of friends anymore with whom I share a similar intensity for the game. That was they key to playing for so long when I was younger; my friends and I were all competitive but still had fun and no one wandered too far into the game monetarily to price the rest of us out of the game. Obviously, some spent more and some less, and some were better at the game, but it was close enough that we had a reasonably cohesive playgroup for a long time. When I started playing again I didn't have friends to play with and keeping up competitively with the game for weekly tournaments is just far too expensive. Mythic rares upwards of $30 and normal rares that are ubiquitous and expensive kept me from being too competitive. Of course, it helped that when I was younger we played with our whole collections rather than constantly rotating out sets. I just sold off several thousand commons and uncommons to a local card shop, but still have a bunch more and books upon books of rares (well over a thousand I'd guess), plus the complete mint Revised set.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-19-2010, 07:17 AM
Wheels's Avatar
Wheels Wheels is offline
Dr. of Ys-anomics
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Whalers Country, CT
Posts: 4,377
Default

I've been playing Magic basically since revised, though only started doing tournaments regularly a few years ago. Came in 10th in a pro-tour qualifier once.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-19-2010, 07:38 AM
benjibot's Avatar
benjibot benjibot is offline
Super Nerd
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The fictional city of Chicago
Posts: 2,016
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. J View Post
mmm, Magic. Bejibot, you probably should have gone Black, Red depending on the rest of your stuff. That assassin wins you the game if they don't do anything about it in limited.
Yeah, I have to agree. In fact, I remember a dude excitedly showing off a card in between rounds saying that it won him all of his games. I didn't realize until later that this was exactly the card he was talking about. I'm not sure why I picked white/green. I think I was looking at creatures and those colors had the best, easiest creatures to play. I was picking cards that required only 1 {W} or {G} in addition to colorless. Also, I had some synergy with auras between white and green.

In terms of awesome white cards I did pull Kor Spiritdancer. I managed to pump her up to something like 8/10 with a few auras and also drew extra cards.

On Friday I played a booster draft and pulled Anowon, the Ruin Sage and the totally fucking awesome Scrib Nibblers. At the end of the match I pulled a second Anowon (a shiny one!) and a Basilisk Collar. I've also got a Blade of the Bloodchief sitting around here. I think the universe is trying to tell me to play black.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-19-2010, 08:24 AM
Wheels's Avatar
Wheels Wheels is offline
Dr. of Ys-anomics
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Whalers Country, CT
Posts: 4,377
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjibot View Post
I think the universe is trying to tell me to play black.
It is a great time to be playing black
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-19-2010, 08:31 AM
Nodal's Avatar
Nodal Nodal is offline
:O
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 10,471
Default

I used to play Magic a lot. I wasn't very good at building decks but I won because I used up all the luck in my life ever when playing. My favorite favorite TCG ever though was Magi-Nation.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-19-2010, 08:49 AM
Nicholai's Avatar
Nicholai Nicholai is offline
I like Starman.
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 2,561
Default

In terms of other non-Magic TCGs. I played: Overpower, Legend of the 5 Rings, Star Trek, Star Wars (Decipher), BattleTech, Rage, Vamprie, Lord of the Rings, Spellfire, and VS System. I had a lot of Trek and Wars cards, but played both games sparingly. BattleTech was hot among my friends for a short time, but I never got too deep into it. VS System is the newest and the one I got most into, but it sadly died.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ccg , magic the gathering , mtg , traditional games

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Your posts ©you, 2007