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  #6031  
Old 05-05-2015, 03:07 PM
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BoyOnion: Well, you make a strong case for the Prophets getting involved. After the minefield was destroyed, it really was the only way to resolve the plot. Still, it felt a little too convenient for me, and I didn't care for the way they treated Sisko. If they're like brothers as you suggest, that's one contentious sibling relationship.

Sisko: "Well, we're screwed. Guess we'll take out as many of the Jem H'Dar as we can..."
Prophets: "Stop! You can't throw your life away like that!"
Sisko: "We can't do anything else! Do you see all those ships?"
Prophets: "Yeah, not our problem."
Sisko: "If you don't get involved, what other choice do I have but a suicide run?"
Prophets: "Okay, FINE. There, the Dominion are gone. Happy now?"
Sisko: "Uh, thanks."
Prophets: "But you can forget your retirement plans on Bajor. That's what you get for bugging us."
Sisko: "So you're... punishing me for circumstances beyond my control?"
Prophets: "Hey, shut up! Just go back to your station already!"

I get the same vibe from people who claim Sisko's death in the finale makes him a black father abandoning his family. He died. I think the situation is just a teensy bit beyond his control, don't you? It reminds me of when Zapp Brannigan sends waves of fighters to their deaths against an unstoppable alien armada and he shouts, "Stop exploding, you cowards!"

Also, while I'm ranting, I've gotta say the Prophets are jerks. The way they speak in vagaries and show all the compassion toward mortals that you might show an especially bothersome mosquito makes me wonder why anyone would bother worshiping them at all. Q might have amused himself by pulling the wings off flies, but at least he did it with style.
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  #6032  
Old 05-05-2015, 05:10 PM
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Oh, yeah they're definitely very cold. They were a necessary element in the story, IMO, but yes I agree they are not the most accommodating allies. Being necessary doesn't always mean satisfying though, so I understand why some don't like the resolution. I'm pretty hard on stories that pull what SoA pulled, so I'm a little surprised at myself for loving it the way I do.

And Buge, I always thought that too! Even if that's not how the Founders were conceived, the Dominion certainly took on a number of religious traits through the show. The Jem'Hadar are the most obvious giveaway, but on my recent rewatch I found Weyoun really fascinating. Everything from his desire to appreciate the arts (but accepting his design that he never can) to the charming Vorta creation story he tells Odo. There's obviously a kernel of truth to it but it's wrapped in so many layers of myth that it's really only a parable at this point
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  #6033  
Old 05-05-2015, 06:23 PM
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Let me add to this. Do you think the Jem H'dar and the Vorta were genetically engineered from scratch, or are the last remnants of races that angered the Founders? The Founders seem to have a sadistic streak, and I can easily imagine them taking species that had mistreated them and turning them into guinea pigs for experiments. They were able to turn Odo into a humanoid just by immersing them in the Great Link... it doesn't seem like it would be beyond their capacity.

One thing I noticed about DS9 is that the Federation is fond of offering light slaps on the wrist when more severe punishments would be appropriate. Bashir's parents genetically engineered him, a grave violation of Federation law. They got sent to a prison colony in New Zealand for a couple of years, maybe less. Garak nearly killed a high-ranking Federation officer and an entire race of beings... he got nine months in a holding cell. The Founders tried to conquer the Alpha Quadrant and dismantle the Federation... only one Changeling was given a life sentence. I'm sure it would be hell for HER, not being able to join the Great Link and all, but it wasn't like she acted alone.
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  #6034  
Old 05-05-2015, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
Do you think the Jem H'dar and the Vorta were... the last remnants of races that angered the Founders?
I've operated under the assumption for the last 20 years that it was just that case.

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Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
Bashir's parents genetically engineered him, a grave violation of Federation law.
This to me always felt like a cover-up - you've got a galaxy-class doctor who is at the front lines of saving the entire quadrant and has already been a huge asset to the entire Federation in the medical work he's done. Pragmatically that's something you want to cover up rather than throw the book. Also, the Federation in general is an enlightened place where the emphasis is on rehab, not revenge. I doubt a retired couple past menopause would be repeat offenders here in the genetic-baby-crime-realm.
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  #6035  
Old 05-05-2015, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
Let me add to this. Do you think the Jem H'dar and the Vorta were genetically engineered from scratch, or are the last remnants of races that angered the Founders? The Founders seem to have a sadistic streak, and I can easily imagine them taking species that had mistreated them and turning them into guinea pigs for experiments. They were able to turn Odo into a humanoid just by immersing them in the Great Link... it doesn't seem like it would be beyond their capacity.
Honestly, I always just took the Vorta story at the seed of truth it suggested. Literally, that the Vorta were uplifted by the Changelings because the Changelings like them, or found them loyal and discovered they could refine that loyalty into raw worship. If it were otherwise, and the Vorta were dicks to the Changelings in the distant past, I feel more like the Changelings would engineer a good deal of guilt into the Vorta -- genetic shame for all the transgressions they committed against their gods -- and never allow them to forget it.

The Jem'Hadar? I always thought they were specifically created to be the scariest sons of bitches around. Like, what are most people afraid of? Tall, scary men? Check. Dinosaurs? Check. Mix them together and give them guns and yuh oh.

I feel like if the Changelings were really sour on your race, they'd just hit you with a Quickening or something.
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  #6036  
Old 05-07-2015, 04:13 PM
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25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites just got added to GOG! The latter in particular had become really hard to install, and it's the one that better replicates the trippy, philosophical side of TOS. There's also another game called Starfleet Academy that I never played.
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  #6037  
Old 05-07-2015, 04:14 PM
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Starfleet Academy is your generic Star Trek space sim, of which there were what, a dozen or so?
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  #6038  
Old 05-07-2015, 05:00 PM
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If this Starfleet Academy is made by Interplay, I played it. Basically a space flying 3-d shoot-em-up with guest stars William Shatner, George Takei, and Walter Koenig. You're basically a cadet working through his years with a command crew. There's some kind of loyalty system, but I never paid attention to it when I was a kid. It all has to do with choices you make between simulator missions. There are other things you can do with space shooting like rerouting power from toilets to weapons or, if you're in a nebula, sensors so you can have a barely functioning radar.
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  #6039  
Old 05-07-2015, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by taosterman View Post
25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites just got added to GOG! The latter in particular had become really hard to install, and it's the one that better replicates the trippy, philosophical side of TOS. There's also another game called Starfleet Academy that I never played.
I quite enjoyed those.
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  #6040  
Old 05-08-2015, 09:52 PM
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That one TNG extra really looks like Gozer the Gozerian with that hair. She distracts me in every scene she's in.
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  #6041  
Old 05-09-2015, 01:39 AM
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Three words: remote controlled corpse.
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  #6042  
Old 05-09-2015, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ArugulaZ View Post
Three words: remote controlled corpse.
That reminds me I should get back to TNG S7. Watched only three episodes so far in the past week+.

"LOVE ME!!"

No.
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  #6043  
Old 05-09-2015, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by boyonion View Post
That one TNG extra really looks like Gozer the Gozerian with that hair. She distracts me in every scene she's in.
I know exactly the one you're talking about. The lady from that alien abduction episode, right?
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  #6044  
Old 05-09-2015, 08:28 AM
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Yes. She's been in so many episodes, though. I never noticed until doing a chronological re-watch. I saw a clip of First Contact (the movie) on Youtube and she's there too!
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  #6045  
Old 05-09-2015, 10:36 AM
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I'm not actually enjoying DS9 S5 very much. The writing quality seems to have declined from the heights of S3&4, and the drama I'd been enjoying so much a has been replaced with cheap melodrama. Watch Odo agonize about having once gotten it wrong! Watch Odo agonize about being stranded alone on an inhospitable planet with Quark! Watch Sisko agonize about brain damage from Quark's substandard equipment! Watch O'Brien agonize about the death of an ensign we've never seen before! Watch Jake agonize about not being any good at space adventure! Watch Worf agonize about having fun!

Watch me fall asleep.

Apocalypse Rising, Looking for par'Mach in All The Wrong Places, and Trials and Tribble-ations have been the only better-than-tolerable episodes so far. But they were all really good, so...
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  #6046  
Old 05-09-2015, 12:21 PM
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So for no reason in particular, last night I watched Star Trek Insurrection and this morning I watched Star Trek Nemesis.

In my head, both of these movies were boring and awful. And Insurrection is definitely too long (despite being the shortest TNG movie). But, you know, they aren't completely terrible! You just have to accept that they're movies in the Action Picard™ vein. First Contact altered the character a bit, and the movies continued on with that. I'm not saying that that's for the best, but that if you go into these two with those in mind, then you'll probably be okay. Insurrection in particular seems like a continuation of the Action Picard™ character, while plopping that Picard down in a more TNG-like situation. Both movies have aged kinda poorly, but it's manageable. Insurrection is definitely poorly paced.

I'm not even recommending them or anything. Just that, in my mind, I had First Contact on a pedestal as being WAY better than these two, but they're honestly all almost about the same level of decent. First Contact is still the best, but Insurrection has some good humor (and some great so-bad-its-good failed attempts at humor, oh, and some great continuity errors too) and overacting from F. Murray Abraham, and Nemesis has a decent space battle with some cool set pieces and some great Tom Hardy overacting (and also a weird scene where Picard drives a dune buggy). There's fun to be had here.

Also, Worf has a phaser bazooka in Insurrection. Which is so stupid that...man, I love it. Oh! And there's a scene where they get into a stare-down with robot drones and then Data does unnecessary flips all over the place. Pretty good.

I mean, they're not good...but they can be a fun time if you're willing to laugh along with it.
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  #6047  
Old 05-09-2015, 07:51 PM
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Naw, Insurrection is boring and predictable as all hell. It's like a mediocre episode of the TV series and doesn't even look like it has a Hollywood budget. Nemesis for all its flaws felt like a breath of fresh air by comparison.
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  #6048  
Old 05-09-2015, 08:16 PM
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I'm not sure I'd put Nemesis ahead of Insurrection, really, but its flaws are at least interesting. I mean, for example, here is a film that manages to both waste Ron Perlman as a space Nosferatu AND give us a skinny Tom Hardy cribbing liberally from FarScape's Scorpius.

The dune buggy scene is one of the worst things in all of Trek.
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  #6049  
Old 05-09-2015, 09:05 PM
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Insurrection was bad Star Trek, but at least it was Star Trek. Nemesis was so out of touch with what Trek was about that it was unrecognizable. Just like in the new movies when they try to explain what the Kobayashi Maru means, and it's like, "Have you people even seen the movie you're ripping off?"

Nemesis was not as bad a finale as the one Enterprise got. But then, the only worse finale than Enterprise's was the K-T Extinction.

I would far prefer the TNG franchise to have ended with the merely bad Insurrection. I'm not sure if Nemesis is worse than Star Trek V, because I would have to watch them both again to find out, and bleh. But again, at least Star Trek V was bad Star Trek.
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  #6050  
Old 05-10-2015, 01:59 AM
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For as bad as Star Trek V is, it's a film that at least has a lot of heart, and at its core attempts to tell a Star Trek story. Nemesis has no heart. Only Dianna Riker getting mind-raped, inexplicably bald young-Picard, Romulan-Morlocks, the worst disregard for the Prime Directive in any Star Trek film, and retard-Data*.

Also, I don't blame First Contact for Action-Picard. If we're going to blame a film, Generations has Action-Picard too, in a much more egregiously awful manner. The final battle is a horrendously boring and awful three-way fist-fight between three geriatric characters that somehow ends up with the two better fighters dead and Picard somehow alive. Action-Picard is also a TNG-proper thing too, but usually it's not as ridiculous. Darmok and that one time Q sent him back to prevent him from getting shanked by Nausicans was actually excellent Action-Picard.

*I'd love to see a Three Stooges parody with Lore, Data, and B-4 playing Moe, Larry, and Curly respectively.
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  #6051  
Old 05-10-2015, 05:30 AM
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Action Picard doesn't make a lot of sense. Action Riker, sure. Action Sisko, definitely. Even Janeway, for all her flaws, wielded a mean phaser. But Picard? Feh. He's too old and too even tempered to be yippie-kai-yaying his way through a movie.

Getting back to the point, of the two crappy Next Gen movies, I hated Nemesis the least. It was very hard for me to care about the characters or storyline in Insurrection, and the way they offed the bureaucratic admiral with a lethal facelift really got under my skin. Not just stupid, but creepy too.
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  #6052  
Old 05-10-2015, 06:26 AM
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Insurrection was like a feature-length bad episode.
Nemesis was like somebody saying "I'm pretty sure this is what Star Track is supposed to look like, right?"
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  #6053  
Old 05-10-2015, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanagi View Post
Insurrection was bad Star Trek, but at least it was Star Trek. Nemesis was so out of touch with what Trek was about that it was unrecognizable.
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Originally Posted by Dart Zaidyer View Post
Nemesis was like somebody saying "I'm pretty sure this is what Star Track is supposed to look like, right?"
This is very true. They brought on John Logan to write and Stuart Baird to direct, mainly because Logan was friends with Brent Spiner and Baird was brought on because he agreed to edit Tomb Raider. Neither of them were familiar with Trek to the point that Stuart Baird apparently thought Geordi was an alien.
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  #6054  
Old 05-10-2015, 12:44 PM
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Insurrection is weird if you see it after reading some of Fade In, because you actually understand what scenes were trying to accomplish.

Nemesis I mostly liked enough. It felt like 3-4 episodes of varying quality all smushed together but it wasn't something that offended me to my core by any means.
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  #6055  
Old 05-10-2015, 07:23 PM
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Naw, Insurrection is boring and predictable as all hell. It's like a mediocre episode of the TV series and doesn't even look like it has a Hollywood budget. Nemesis for all its flaws felt like a breath of fresh air by comparison.
It's a little boring, but it also has honest attempts at being funny and cool that fall so far flat that they're kind of hilarious. It's not great, but I got a kick out of parts of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasmorator View Post
I'm not sure I'd put Nemesis ahead of Insurrection, really, but its flaws are at least interesting. I mean, for example, here is a film that manages to both waste Ron Perlman as a space Nosferatu AND give us a skinny Tom Hardy cribbing liberally from FarScape's Scorpius.

The dune buggy scene is one of the worst things in all of Trek.
But that's what makes it so fun! It's so stupid and bad and pointless that I can't help but laugh at it. The forced/sort-of-revenge showdown between Ron Perlman and Riker that's totally anticlimatic is hilariously bad.

Anyway, they're bad, but I had some fun watching them.

I think Generations is probably more competent than the both of them, but it's also extremely boring; probably the most boring of them all. I dunno, Insurrection would certainly give it a run for its money...it's tough to say.
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  #6056  
Old 05-10-2015, 07:35 PM
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Generations is half of a mediocre TNG two-parter stapled to one of Shatner's Star Trek books. You can kinda see where it could have been good, but any time the movie starts to get going you get sucked into the timey-wimey shenanigans again and it dies.
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  #6057  
Old 05-10-2015, 07:53 PM
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TNG S7 re-watch continues for the first time since last weekend. We did the "Gambit" two-parter and "Phantasms".

The former was... okay. I always generally like the fast-paced TNG adventure episodes, and this one started out good... but in the end it seemed way too pat (especially Picard's switcheroo with the pirate captain's death button, good god) and the treasure ended up being surprisingly shrug-worthy. I suppose it was good to see the Saavik actress again. She did a really good job playing a character who is pretending to be stone-cold Vulcan. What's cool is that she's done pure Vulcan before so we know what that looks like from her. But she plays her character here with little small inflections and gestures that suggest she's not entirely Spock-like but is trying to pass herself off as such. Not a dreadful two-parter but I really couldn't muster up much enthusiasm for it.

And "Phantasms". Wow. Definitely didn't like it, but definitely didn't dislike it. It sure happened. I guess it's not really the fault of the episode as much as the series, but I wish Data's dreams got explored more thoroughly with regards to his Quest For Humanity rather than being this week's miracle solution for the routine ship-in-danger plot (in this case, invisible cell-eating warp coil pancakes).

What's up next?

Oh. A Lwaxana episode.

You guys weren't kidding about Season 7. Season 6 started pretty bad too, but recovered pretty well and ended up being really good overall. I somehow doubt the same lightning will strike twice.
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  #6058  
Old 05-11-2015, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Action Picard doesn't make a lot of sense. Action Riker, sure.
Of course, there's a reason for that - Riker was supposed to be on the Enterprise fighting the Borg in First Contact, with Picard on the surface. But Frakes got named director, Stewart didn't like any of the surface action, and so they swapped the roles around as a result (and obviously placed more emphasis on the shipboard stuff).

Apparently the original was like The Music Man meets Star Trek, with Picard rallying a depressed town to build the warp ship.
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  #6059  
Old 05-11-2015, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sanagi View Post
I would far prefer the TNG franchise to have ended with the merely bad Insurrection. I'm not sure if Nemesis is worse than Star Trek V, because I would have to watch them both again to find out, and bleh. But again, at least Star Trek V was bad Star Trek.
Insurrection reminds me much more of Star Trek V than Nemesis, probably because of the awful attempts at humor.

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Originally Posted by taosterman View Post
25th Anniversary and Judgment Rites just got added to GOG! The latter in particular had become really hard to install, and it's the one that better replicates the trippy, philosophical side of TOS. There's also another game called Starfleet Academy that I never played.

!!!!
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  #6060  
Old 05-11-2015, 06:18 PM
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Going back to DS9... I just saw that episode with the defective defector Weyoun, possibly for the first time. I certainly don't remember it, anyway. Nor do I remember the origin story of the Vorta. It does seem plausible, but I'm not sure why they'd revere the Founders when they were so obviously being used. Genetic engineering? Cloning? Termination implants? It's crap like that that make the shapeshifters one of the more frightening villains in the Star Trek mythology. They're incredibly cold and sociopathic... they repay an act of kindness by the Vorta with self-serving "improvements," and turn them into lapdogs. Their empathy for anyone but themselves borders on a flatline.

There's a lot of talk on Deep Space Nine about how the shifters were "persecuted" by other races, but maybe they were just dicks. Their arrogance even starts to seep into the otherwise sensible Odo when he starts merging with the female shapeshifter. I'd say the Founders got off really, really easy at the end of the Dominion War when only she was arrested for their crimes.
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