The Return of Talking Time

Go Back   The Return of Talking Time > Talking about media > Talking about TV and film

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #9031  
Old 05-18-2017, 02:29 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,684
Default

To people poopooing the DIS trailer, just a friendly reminder for the sake of reference, this is how DS9 and Voyager was sold back in the day:





Also info lost in the shuffle, apparently DIS is going to now be 15 episodes instead of the original planned 13, so that's good news!
Reply With Quote
  #9032  
Old 05-18-2017, 03:13 PM
Dart Zaidyer's Avatar
Dart Zaidyer Dart Zaidyer is offline
More than two problems
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Free Country USA
Posts: 3,153
Default

I've seen comments that point out the Netflix trailer (which is where Discovery will be appearing everywhere outside the US) doesn't have Abrams-style lens flares. They were apparently edited in for the US version.

I've also seen it speculated that Discovery will live or die based on how it performs in the US because something something Only America Matters™, and that's a problem because it's being restricted here to CBS's proprietary subscription service that nobody wants.
Now I know how Canada feels about large chunks of Netflix.
Reply With Quote
  #9033  
Old 05-18-2017, 03:56 PM
SpoonyBardOL's Avatar
SpoonyBardOL SpoonyBardOL is offline
I. Love. It.
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Newfie Land
Posts: 14,970
Default

I honestly don't know why they insisted on making this another show pre-Original Series.

Enterprise strained belief enough with how much more advanced everything looked for something that took place so long before Kirk sat in the chair as it was. Now we have a ship that looks like it came from the Abrams-verse, but we're still supposed to believe it pre-dates the original series?

Like, they could have just set it 100 years after the TNG/DS9/VOY era. It would have been enough time that they would still have had plenty of creative freedom to do their mutant Klingons or whatever, and the super sleek ship would make sense. 100 years would be enough time so that they wouldn't be bound by the events of the TNG/DS9/VOY era, but they could still revisit them if they wished.

I know griping about how the ship looks is such a nerd thing to do, when of course the design of a show in 2017 would be drastically different than something from the 60s and we need to suspend some disbelief.

I just.... I want some official continuation of the Trek I grew up with. The original series nostalgia is great and all but TNG and DS9 are what hooked me on the franchise, and I want a TV series to continue that story, bring that timeline forward. That universe's story basically ended with freaking Nemesis and that's just sad.

And yes I know Star Trek Online exists but... ehhhhhhgh...
Reply With Quote
  #9034  
Old 05-18-2017, 04:53 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoonyBardOL View Post
I honestly don't know why they insisted on making this another show pre-Original Series.
IMO, it's a matter of maintaining the whole notion that Star Trek is about exploration first and foremost. If you want to maintain that idea, as well as the setting and most of the canon, placing a new show post-Nemesis presents you with a lot of problems. Namely, that the setting of Star Trek - our Milky Way Galaxy - is now mostly an explored and known quantity. Post-Nemesis, the Federation's exploration and reach extends through all four quadrants, and any major adversaries are all accounted for and quelled post-VOY, DS9, and Nemesis. Also, the tech that's accessible to the Federation at that point also makes exploration a trivial matter. It just creates a lot of problems for writers when you're supposed to be following a ship exploring something out by itself, when at any moment a transwarp conduit can and should dump a bunch of reinforcements at your request. Going back to a point in Star Trek continuity where the Galaxy is still mostly unexplored frees the writers in a lot of ways, and increases the chances that we keep that spirit of exploration intact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpoonyBardOL View Post
I just.... I want some official continuation of the Trek I grew up with.
It's strangely heartwarming to see that "Not MY Star Trek!" is a sentiment that's still alive and well after 50 years.

If it's any consolation SpoonyBardOL, consider this fact: Literally every Star Trek ever made post TOS was met with the exact same "Not MY Star Trek!" gut reaction from fans, and in retrospect they almost all turned out pretty good. Especially the one you're specifically nostalgic for.

I'm guilty of that reaction to. It's how I greeted DS9, VOY, and ENT when they first aired, and I deeply regret it in hindsight. At the very least, two of those three shows turned into very good Star Trek in their own right. I'm making it a conscious point to learn from history and my own mistakes and to give this show a fair shot and not not evaluate it harshly/prematurely on unfair standards.

Edit: Not to sound like I'm grilling or dumping on you, I totally get and empathize with how you feel and am not trying to invalidate it. I'm just trying to be positive and keep and open mind here, because I'd rather not repeat mistakes I've made in the past, and would encourage others to do the same.
Reply With Quote
  #9035  
Old 05-18-2017, 05:10 PM
SpoonyBardOL's Avatar
SpoonyBardOL SpoonyBardOL is offline
I. Love. It.
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Newfie Land
Posts: 14,970
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
It's strangely heartwarming to see that "Not MY Star Trek!" is a sentiment that's still alive and well after 50 years.
Honestly re-reading that part of my post sounds more petulant than I intended.

I certainly don't begrudge the series from trying new things, and maybe DIS will be great and I hope it is, but this constant moving backwards (ENT, Abrams-verse, DIS) bothers me when the Trek that I remember (yes yes) had an ongoing continuity between three series, to some extent or another, and I miss that. I'd just like a show to pick up where that left off, rather than another story set in the past with somehow more advanced-looking technology.

I guess I'm just more hung up on the continuity thing (nerrrrrrrrrd) than I should be.
Reply With Quote
  #9036  
Old 05-18-2017, 05:33 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,684
Default

Like I said, I totally empathize with you, so I didn't read it as petulant, but I did want to poke fun a little and give perspective. Honestly, I too am a huge continuity nerd, and it delights me to no end to explore the in-between time periods and explore more lore and backstory to the Federation we already know of. Because TBH, we honestly don't know much about the Federation at all. What we see of it is through such a small lens/narrow perspective, so getting more angles to see the same stuff gives texture and depth to this thing I already love. It's like opening a new history book that fills in a part of history you were unaware of before.

Sometimes when they fill things in, it isn't the greatest, but I really enjoyed most of what ENT did. For example, what it did to flesh out and add depth to classic species like the Vulcans, Andorians, and even the Klingons was amazing, as well as showing us the trials and tribulations that led to the formation of the UFP and the ironing out of the principles of the Prime Directive. There's a lot of stuff that could be explored that could give existing Star Trek continuity and canon even more depth. It's just a matter of being open minded to it, IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #9037  
Old 05-18-2017, 05:35 PM
Büge's Avatar
Büge Büge is offline
Safe Space
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TO, ON, CA
Posts: 14,382
Default

I think a compromise could be in order. They should have set it post-Undiscovered Country. The Klingons are rebuilding, a tenuous peace emerges, and the galaxy is still open for discovery. And there's always the possibility of guest stars like Sulu or Uhura. Plus you get the coolest uniforms.
Reply With Quote
  #9038  
Old 05-18-2017, 06:04 PM
Dart Zaidyer's Avatar
Dart Zaidyer Dart Zaidyer is offline
More than two problems
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Free Country USA
Posts: 3,153
Default

Prequels are bad ideas no matter what you're writing, they cause more problems than they solve. You can't set up anything with real stakes because you already know how the universe is going to turn out. It's why Abrams bent over backwards to say "alternate universe". You can't do shit like blow up Vulcan and pretend to have continuity with all the stuff where Vulcan pointedly still exists.

Doing a prequel because "unexplored space!!" is a lazy excuse as well. A true sequel a generation or two into the future not only gives you access to the aging TNG/DS9/Voyager actors for cameos (hell, Bashir's dad is in MacFarlane's show), but you could give all sorts of reasons why the galaxy needs more exploring. "Oops, something crazy happened like a weird galaxy-wide space storm or Q clicked the "randomize" button or our warp drives caused space-climate-change and ruined space travel and communication as we know it, maybe there was even a war or maybe the Federation collapsed, so our records are useless now and our contacts were lost, time to put a new band together and see what all our old neighbors are up to and if any of them are still there!"
Reply With Quote
  #9039  
Old 05-18-2017, 06:17 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dart Zaidyer View Post
Prequels are bad ideas... You can't set up anything with real stakes because you already know how the universe is going to turn out..
This line of thought is highly illogical.
Reply With Quote
  #9040  
Old 05-18-2017, 07:15 PM
Traumadore's Avatar
Traumadore Traumadore is offline
An Animal of Joy
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,812
Default

The Federation is really big, and space is really big. Events of consequence surely happened to more than one crew in the galaxy at any given time. Use your imagination.
Reply With Quote
  #9041  
Old 05-18-2017, 08:10 PM
Mogri's Avatar
Mogri Mogri is offline
Yes, let's feast!
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 14,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
To people poopooing the DIS trailer, just a friendly reminder for the sake of reference, this is how DS9 and Voyager was sold back in the day:
Hmm, I don't know. The DS9 trailer isn't bad. The Voyager trailer was a bit odd, though, and a little too eager to brush DS9 under the rug.
Reply With Quote
  #9042  
Old 05-18-2017, 08:39 PM
chud_666's Avatar
chud_666 chud_666 is offline
120 Days
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Salo
Posts: 7,785
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dart Zaidyer View Post
Prequels are bad ideas no matter what you're writing, they cause more problems than they solve. You can't set up anything with real stakes because you already know how the universe is going to turn out. It's why Abrams bent over backwards to say "alternate universe". You can't do shit like blow up Vulcan and pretend to have continuity with all the stuff where Vulcan pointedly still exists.

Doing a prequel because "unexplored space!!" is a lazy excuse as well. A true sequel a generation or two into the future not only gives you access to the aging TNG/DS9/Voyager actors for cameos (hell, Bashir's dad is in MacFarlane's show), but you could give all sorts of reasons why the galaxy needs more exploring. "Oops, something crazy happened like a weird galaxy-wide space storm or Q clicked the "randomize" button or our warp drives caused space-climate-change and ruined space travel and communication as we know it, maybe there was even a war or maybe the Federation collapsed, so our records are useless now and our contacts were lost, time to put a new band together and see what all our old neighbors are up to and if any of them are still there!"
Also Kasidy Yates in Orville!
Reply With Quote
  #9043  
Old 05-19-2017, 11:52 AM
Destil's Avatar
Destil Destil is online now
TARANTUL
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 20,758
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
IMO, it's a matter of maintaining the whole notion that Star Trek is about exploration first and foremost. If you want to maintain that idea, as well as the setting and most of the canon, placing a new show post-Nemesis presents you with a lot of problems. Namely, that the setting of Star Trek - our Milky Way Galaxy - is now mostly an explored and known quantity. Post-Nemesis, the Federation's exploration and reach extends through all four quadrants, and any major adversaries are all accounted for and quelled post-VOY, DS9, and Nemesis. Also, the tech that's accessible to the Federation at that point also makes exploration a trivial matter.
Didn't Janeway out of bounds her way through 90% of the Delta Quadrent and destroy the transwarp network in the process in the last episode of Voyager?
Reply With Quote
  #9044  
Old 05-19-2017, 01:15 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destil View Post
Didn't Janeway out of bounds her way through 90% of the Delta Quadrent and destroy the transwarp network in the process in the last episode of Voyager?
Janeway also came back with updated star charts of the Delta Quadrant and future-tech from future-Janeway, where in her time traveling across the entire Galaxy in no time flat was child's play.
Reply With Quote
  #9045  
Old 05-19-2017, 03:17 PM
Kirin's Avatar
Kirin Kirin is offline
Not a Beer
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 19,345
Default

Welp, guess it's time for Star Trek: Andromeda, where Milky Way future super-tech doesn't work right because reasons.
Reply With Quote
  #9046  
Old 05-19-2017, 03:42 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirin View Post
Welp, guess it's time for Star Trek: Andromeda, where Milky Way future super-tech doesn't work right because reasons.
As terrible as that sounds, it's actually a scenario I would love to see. Because remember the TOS episode By Any Other Name where Kirk meets colonists from the Andromeda Galaxy? I think you could tell a fascinating modern Trek story about the issues surrounding immigration where suddenly massive armadas from Andromeda show up in the Milky Way seeking new homes. That's probably a top 3 dream scenario for me, combined with exploring anything post-Khitomer, and more Enterprise.
Reply With Quote
  #9047  
Old 05-24-2017, 02:49 AM
Positronic Brain's Avatar
Positronic Brain Positronic Brain is offline
Out Of Warranty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Posts: 8,418
Default

I ran into another Season 4 clunker in TNG, Identity Crisis. It wasn't bad, per se, but it felt so mediocre, so lazy. Part of it is because for the plot to work they just had to wave away the fact that the sensors of the Enterprise apparently don't work with chameleons and octopi, but mostly because the episode feel so un-TNG. It felt more like an Outer Limits episode...

Take Geordi, for example, who in this episode mutates into an alien life form. The scrip never takes a moment to stop and notice that for a brief moment Geordi LaForge had his eyesight back. From the character's point of view (ha!) this would have been a very significant deal, and I'd rather would have watched that than all those slow panoramic shots of the set of the alien planet. It felt like lazy writing to me.

BTW, I see this episode's story was by Brannon "Threshold" Braga. Apparently mutating the crew into completely alien life forms and then mutating them back with no lasting consequences is an idea he's fond of.
Reply With Quote
  #9048  
Old 05-24-2017, 05:16 AM
Red Hedgehog's Avatar
Red Hedgehog Red Hedgehog is offline
For blood and gold
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 14,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
Take Geordi, for example, who in this episode mutates into an alien life form. The scrip never takes a moment to stop and notice that for a brief moment Geordi LaForge had his eyesight back. From the character's point of view (ha!) this would have been a very significant deal, and I'd rather would have watched that than all those slow panoramic shots of the set of the alien planet. It felt like lazy writing to me.
The script also never takes a moment to stop and notice that Geordi LaForge has no genitalia.
Reply With Quote
  #9049  
Old 05-24-2017, 05:52 AM
taosterman's Avatar
taosterman taosterman is offline
Gesundheit!
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ann ARR-BRR
Posts: 9,701
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisteriaHysteria View Post
As terrible as that sounds, it's actually a scenario I would love to see. Because remember the TOS episode By Any Other Name where Kirk meets colonists from the Andromeda Galaxy? I think you could tell a fascinating modern Trek story about the issues surrounding immigration where suddenly massive armadas from Andromeda show up in the Milky Way seeking new homes. That's probably a top 3 dream scenario for me, combined with exploring anything post-Khitomer, and more Enterprise.
I read Ron Moore or somebody talking about how tough it is to write stories in the current Trek universe because of all of the existing canon, and I thought, just write a way to get the show out of the Milky Way. Have a space wizard do it. The universe is pretty big.
Reply With Quote
  #9050  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:13 AM
Octopus Prime's Avatar
Octopus Prime Octopus Prime is offline
Mystery Contraption
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 41,902
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
I ran into another Season 4 clunker in TNG, Identity Crisis. It wasn't bad, per se, but it felt so mediocre, so lazy. Part of it is because for the plot to work they just had to wave away the fact that the sensors of the Enterprise apparently don't work with chameleons and octopi, but mostly because the episode feel so un-TNG. It felt more like an Outer Limits episode...

Take Geordi, for example, who in this episode mutates into an alien life form. The scrip never takes a moment to stop and notice that for a brief moment Geordi LaForge had his eyesight back. From the character's point of view (ha!) this would have been a very significant deal, and I'd rather would have watched that than all those slow panoramic shots of the set of the alien planet. It felt like lazy writing to me.

BTW, I see this episode's story was by Brannon "Threshold" Braga. Apparently mutating the crew into completely alien life forms and then mutating them back with no lasting consequences is an idea he's fond of.
That was the episode where Crusher saves the day by surgically removing all the germs in Geordies body.

Which is barely in the top five Noteable Things Crusher has done.
Reply With Quote
  #9051  
Old 05-24-2017, 08:22 AM
Sven's Avatar
Sven Sven is offline
For Great Apollo Justice
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 21,019
Default

Quote:
From the character's point of view (ha!) this would have been a very significant deal,
You'd think that, but then they gave him eyes (cybernetic ones) back in the movies and it was met with barely a shrug (and maybe a throwaway joke in Insurrection, but I can't even remember if that was the case).

I mean, we all know that Burton was just tired of having to act out every scene with a girl's hairband glued to his temples, but...
Reply With Quote
  #9052  
Old 05-24-2017, 08:40 AM
Positronic Brain's Avatar
Positronic Brain Positronic Brain is offline
Out Of Warranty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Posts: 8,418
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven View Post
You'd think that, but then they gave him eyes (cybernetic ones) back in the movies and it was met with barely a shrug (and maybe a throwaway joke in Insurrection, but I can't even remember if that was the case)
I've always assumed that his cybernetic eyes were just a new, more compact model of his old V.I.S.O.R.
Reply With Quote
  #9053  
Old 05-24-2017, 04:31 PM
Torzelbaum's Avatar
Torzelbaum Torzelbaum is offline
????? LV 13 HP 292/
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 9,919
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by taosterman View Post
I read Ron Moore or somebody talking about how tough it is to write stories in the current Trek universe because of all of the existing canon, and I thought, just write a way to get the show out of the Milky Way. Have a space wizard do it. The universe is pretty big.
Do you mean sorta like what they did in ... Voyager?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
I've always assumed that his cybernetic eyes were just a new, more compact model of his old V.I.S.O.R.
Wait... That's what the official name is!?

Oh nerds... Why must you abuse acronyms so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven View Post
I mean, we all know that Burton was just tired of having to act out every scene with a girl's hairband glued to his temples, but...
Is that how that prop was made? Well, now I'll never be able to see it any other way.
Reply With Quote
  #9054  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:37 PM
Destil's Avatar
Destil Destil is online now
TARANTUL
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 20,758
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Positronic Brain View Post
Take Geordi, for example, who in this episode mutates into an alien life form.
Yeah, but as I mention any time either comes up, it's still much better than the Voyager episode where they turn into lizards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torzelbaum View Post
Is that how that prop was made? Well, now I'll never be able to see it any other way.
It's kind of criminal that there's no MST3K video database on the internet...
Reply With Quote
  #9055  
Old 05-24-2017, 06:38 PM
taosterman's Avatar
taosterman taosterman is offline
Gesundheit!
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ann ARR-BRR
Posts: 9,701
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torzelbaum View Post
Do you mean sorta like what they did in ... Voyager?
Yes, but they've run out of Milky Way. It's also the same thing they did in DS9 with the Gamma quadrant. My point is that if the canon gets too cluttered, well, go farther into the universe.
Reply With Quote
  #9056  
Old 05-24-2017, 11:56 PM
WisteriaHysteria's Avatar
WisteriaHysteria WisteriaHysteria is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,684
Default

Seth McFarlane doing promotional work for Orville is saying all the right things:



Also apparently, they're going to be making extensive use of miniatures for its ships as well:





Is it strange that I might be looking forwards to Orville more than the actual Star Trek show?
Reply With Quote
  #9057  
Old 05-25-2017, 02:07 AM
Parish's Avatar
Parish Parish is offline
Your life is forfeit
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rally, Nerf Cackolacka
Posts: 11,143
Default

All this says to me is that your mind has already blocked all memory of that trailer's "jokes." A natural defense to preserve one's sanity, really.
Reply With Quote
  #9058  
Old 05-25-2017, 05:27 AM
Sven's Avatar
Sven Sven is offline
For Great Apollo Justice
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 21,019
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torzelbaum View Post
Is that how that prop was made? Well, now I'll never be able to see it any other way.
It may not have been, but every kid who wanted to dress up like him for Halloween* certainly made their version that way.

* - Or, as the only brown kid in class, had to play as him or Worf. Not that I'd know anything of that....
Reply With Quote
  #9059  
Old 05-25-2017, 06:41 AM
Büge's Avatar
Büge Büge is offline
Safe Space
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TO, ON, CA
Posts: 14,382
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torzelbaum View Post
Is that how that prop was made? Well, now I'll never be able to see it any other way.
Well, yeah. It's something we obsessive fans learned about early on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memory Alpha
The art staff assigned to Star Trek: The Next Generation spent three months working on possible designs for the VISOR. (Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, 3rd ed., p. 21) After several test models of the device were produced, Scenic Artist Michael Okuda brought a plastic barrette – which generally fits over a girl's or woman's head – into the production, one day, having discovered it could be used to represent the VISOR. (Herman Zimmerman, TNG Season 1 DVD special feature "The Making of a Legend", part "VISOR") Re-manufactured to fit actor LeVar Burton's face, it retained some elements from illustrator Rick Sternbach's designs. Despite these embellishments, many fans quickly guessed that the prop took its inspiration from a barrette. (Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, 3rd ed., p. 21)
Reply With Quote
  #9060  
Old 05-25-2017, 12:31 PM
Falselogic's Avatar
Falselogic Falselogic is offline
Threadcromantosaurus Rex
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: California
Posts: 29,649
Default

New Star Trek is "White Genocide"

Turns out someone can like, nay even love, a thing and not learn a damn thing from it at all!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anomaly , fascinating , four lights , get the cheese to sickbay , gold-pressed latinum , i'm sensing hostility , it's a faaaake! , khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan , live long and prosper , lt. barclay , no it's real!!! , o'brien's shoulder , octo-good , resistance is futile , reverse the polarity , science fiction , shaka when the walls fell , shut up wesley , star trek , tachyon , temba his arms wide , the punishment zone , there is one bridge! , welshy!!!! , wesley crusher

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Your posts ©you, 2007