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  #31  
Old 08-09-2017, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JBear View Post
Anything looks slow next to Stranger of Sword City, though. (FYI, for people who find these games too slow, Stranger of Sword City is the dungeon crawler for you. It has a fast-forward button that burns through turns lightning quick.)
Elminage is pretty brisk too, but it doesn't have the really smart auto-battling that Stranger does. For those that haven't played Stranger of Sword City, if you set up a turn with certain moves that are prerequisites for other moves, the game with automatically execute the most powerful attack the subsequent auto-battle turn. Then the next turn it will re-apply the setup.

For example if you select Hide with your Ninja, the game will keep trying to hide until you're successful, then it will use Assassinate every turn until you lose the Hidden status, then it will go back to attempting to Hide again. Other classes that must focus to use multi-attacks or sniping will do it every other turn automatically. You can really blaze through random encounter this way.
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  #32  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:04 AM
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Looks like Stranger of Sword City Revisited has a Vita demo. I'm going to give that a whirl.
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  #33  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:08 AM
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Stranger is *really* good and I should pick it back up.

JBear: EO3 is absolutely something you shouldn't skip. It's got a lot of crazy stuff nothing else in the series has and a very strong theme/setting. Easily my favroite, even if IV is a better game.
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  #34  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:21 AM
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Funny thing is that EO3 was the one I was thinking of when I said "your party will get walled here because you didn't smart build enough".

I should preface this with a disclaimer: I absolutely adore EO3, especially for its flavor. Etrian Odyssey in general is pretty neat for the whole "you are straight up just canvassing a wilderness that is hostile as hell, here's an RPG to go with it" aspect, but EO3's nautical theming is exactly the right kind of spice for this soup.

That said: I did not build a party of 5 Farmers. I didn't do the myriad Sea Quests even once, so I only had the starting Limits to work with. I built a party based on the Buccaneer's Chase skills despite those being worse in every way than a single Shogun skill. I sided with the Deep City, which doesn't especially matter since I wasn't about to grind up a Yggdroid to my current level, but I could've had the option for a Shogun there and didn't take it, nor did I reclass anyone to take advantage of this. I subclassed my Arbalist to Farmer because I already had all the skills I wanted and figured that'd be a better way to get the resource points in the labyrinth. I even had a punchmonk.

So when I got to the 4th stratum boss, which according to the LP I am reading on SA is a joke boss, I got killed repeatedly and found the entire rigmarole highly infuriating. I still managed to beat the game eventually, but here was a roadblock that wouldn't be a roadblock at all if only I had known the game back-to-front. But I didn't. So the joke boss managed to wall me for an embarrassingly long time.

EO3 is still a good game, but I would really like it to get that remake to iron out its issues.
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  #35  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:40 AM
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genre peaked with Pyramid of Ra
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  #36  
Old 08-09-2017, 01:51 PM
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How did the most recent Might and Magic game turn out?
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  #37  
Old 08-09-2017, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Pajaro Pete View Post
How did the most recent Might and Magic game turn out?
Very well! There were a few glitches and performance hiccups, but the actual game is excellent.
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  #38  
Old 08-09-2017, 02:05 PM
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I don't disagree that if EO3 has a flaw it's that there are 12 classes, so even with subclassing there ends up being a lot of potential stuff you may have a hard time covering.

But there are so many weird, unique and imaginative options in there that I have a hard time seriously faulting the game for that.

Did spineshark ever finish the game with 3x Ninja? I know someone brought 5x princesses to the end here.
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  #39  
Old 08-09-2017, 02:06 PM
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Are there any good dungeon crawlers on iOS? It seems like it would be a good fit.

Otherwise, it sounds like Stranger of Sword City is the way to go, right?
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  #40  
Old 08-09-2017, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
Are there any good dungeon crawlers on iOS? It seems like it would be a good fit.
I haven't played any of these extensively, but you could check out:

Seven Mages
Deep Paths: Labyrinth of Andokost
The Quest HD
Bard's Tale (includes both the modern action-RPG and the classic trilogy)
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  #41  
Old 08-09-2017, 02:40 PM
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I haven't played any of these extensively, but you could check out:

The Quest HD
I've got The Quest in my Steam wishlist too. Has anyone played that?
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  #42  
Old 08-09-2017, 02:53 PM
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I think QuestLord should still be on iOS at the moment, is definitely on Android, and QuestLord 2 will be coming out for both. They're on the Orcs and Elves / Grimrock-but-solo side of things, and the characters I've tried don't have immediate access to magic. Still, it's pretty fun, and QuestLord 2 will have twice the resolution, a nicer interface, longer view range, and a minimap - fixing near all my problems with the game.
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  #44  
Old 08-10-2017, 03:24 AM
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I haven't played Stranger because it's Steam-only, so can't comment on that, but I didn't find Elminage Gothic particularly faster than Shining in the Darkness. Hmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajaro Pete View Post
How did the most recent Might and Magic game turn out?
Basically it's World of Xeen with the following changes:

Pro:
- Better graphics
- A lot more strategical combat
- Many hidden and often funny references to previous titles
- Offers two difficulties that are very well designed with "adventurer" being still challenging but you can't really mess up and "legacy" requiring all your skills, build planning and careful resource management

Con:
- Buggy and developer dropped project before fixing all the bugs
- Not as much freedom as in any of the previous titles
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  #45  
Old 08-10-2017, 03:31 AM
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Why people say that japanese crawlers like Stranger in Sword City are stuck at wizardry 5 level of progress, way behind w7/8?
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  #46  
Old 08-10-2017, 06:25 AM
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I've gotten fairly into first person dungeon crawlers lately, starting with the EOs a few years back and playing Phantasy Star, Shining in the Darkness and Shining the Holy Ark more recently. I haven't played anything particularly tough yet, but I intend to keep going. I didn't used to like first person, I think because I found it disorienting. I played PS years ago I think with maps, and gave up on Shining in the Darkness the first time I tried it. I think it's the mapping that made it work for me, so EO's built in mapmaker was a vital bridge. That said, although I like mapping I don't like it enough to draw my own maps if the game does it for me.

I've been thinking of playing the Bard's Tale recently, but I'm not sure how best to do it. The easiest way might be to get the iOS ports, but I'm not sure if the interface is any good since I think the old versions used a large portion of the keyboard. I also don't know if I can deal without modern conveniences. Or handle the unreported spinners and teleports Mogri mentions. But it's the challenging mapping that interests me, so maybe it's worth the trouble.

A while back I made a very brief attempt to do an ascii art first person dungeon crawl in twine. Wire frame sort of thing. I didn't get very far.

Last edited by Yimothy; 08-10-2017 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Forgot to mention how happy I am to see Mogri's Missingbro avatar still in use
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  #47  
Old 08-10-2017, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yimothy View Post
I've been thinking of playing the Bard's Tale recently, but I'm not sure how best to do it. The easiest way might be to get the iOS ports, but I'm not sure if the interface is any good since I think the old versions used a large portion of the keyboard. I also don't know if I can deal without modern conveniences. Or handle the unreported spinners and teleports Mogri mentions. But it's the challenging mapping that interests me, so maybe it's worth the trouble.
There's really nothing in the modern offerings that even approaches it, so I'd recommend at least giving it a try.

The game takes place entirely within a town that you also explore in first person. It shipped with a map of the town, which you should definitely use as a reference. (The second game adds more towns and a wilderness that connects them, and the third game adds multiple worlds via time travel.)

Despite the existence of areas that can straight-up softlock you if you haven't learned the teleportation spell, the game is at least a little forgiving in that you have a single save file. Save at the start of each floor, and you probably won't screw up too badly.

If you decide to start from scratch with a level 1 party, you will find it's much easier to keep up with healing if you use the Bard's song that heals a point per round during battles, especially if you take advantage of the fact that you can start an intraparty battle with no foes present -- it's a mostly-free heal-to-full at a point in the game where the alternatives are very expensive.
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  #48  
Old 08-10-2017, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajaro Pete View Post
How did the most recent Might and Magic game turn out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraeg View Post
Very well! There were a few glitches and performance hiccups, but the actual game is excellent.
Huh. I sort of lost interest in M&M games at some point, because last time I looked (...7? Maybe?) they were action games, but this looks to be turn-based and on a grid again? I just put it on my Steam wishlist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogri View Post
There's really nothing in the modern offerings that even approaches it, so I'd recommend at least giving it a try.
To offer a dissenting opinion, I kind of think that the combat system in Bard's Tale is garbo. It's incredibly hard to go back to by today's standards, and I would never recommend it to someone that doesn't already have nostalgia for it. I especially wouldn't recommend it to people looking to dip their toe into this genre.

(Mind you, this is all in reference to the original. If there are modern remakes/ports that smooth over the rough edges, then it's probably fine.)
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  #49  
Old 08-10-2017, 07:22 AM
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While I don't know that I'd call it "garbo," there's certainly nothing special about the combat in the Bard's Tale series. You're there for the dungeons; there just happens to be combat as well.

That's why I offered the recommendation to import a high-level party. You really aren't missing out on much by skipping the early tedium.
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  #50  
Old 08-10-2017, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JBear View Post
My name is not JBear, and I approve of this thread.
I'm late to the party with this kind of game, and have only finished one. (Class of Heroes) But I like them a lot, and enjoy seeing different studios' takes on the basic formula.

My brother was into these way back in the day and tells me that he filled a notebook with notes, hand-drawn maps, etc., for the first Bard's Tale. He also tells me he wouldn't have the patience for that nowadays.
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  #51  
Old 08-10-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by YangusKhan View Post
I've got The Quest in my Steam wishlist too. Has anyone played that?
From the limited amount I've played on mobile, I think it's more at home as the big fish in that small pond. It's a bit simplified compared to others in the genre (particularly since it's a single character rather than a party), and on PC you have so many other choices that should probably be prioritized.
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  #52  
Old 08-10-2017, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JBear View Post
Huh. I sort of lost interest in M&M games at some point, because last time I looked (...7? Maybe?) they were action games, but this looks to be turn-based and on a grid again? I just put it on my Steam wishlist.
Well technically VI and VII also offer a turn-based mode.
But I also like grid-based movement a lot more.

M&MX is a pretty recent title made by a smaller developer that is basically made of old Might&Magic fans that Ubisoft financed (Ubisoft has been really fond of financing smaller studios the past years, too bad they don't continue the funding for bugfixing). As long term fans, they really wanted to go back to the original grid-based gameplay, as World of Xeen was their favorite title in the series.
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  #53  
Old 08-10-2017, 05:15 PM
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Picked up Eliminage on the 3DS and, as expected, its inexpressibly more user friendly than Dark Spire while still being overwhelming to a new player. I was able to sale through the menus enough to figure t how to get the Automap up and running, but I have lots of skills that I don't unsay and the function of characters whose skills are obscure and no idea whether or not my party is viable.

If someone's happy to offer some starting tips here they'd be greatly appreciated.
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  #54  
Old 08-10-2017, 06:08 PM
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Another 3DS dungeon crawler worth checking out:

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/the-keep-3ds
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  #55  
Old 08-10-2017, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
Picked up Eliminage on the 3DS and, as expected, its inexpressibly more user friendly than Dark Spire while still being overwhelming to a new player. I was able to sale through the menus enough to figure t how to get the Automap up and running, but I have lots of skills that I don't unsay and the function of characters whose skills are obscure and no idea whether or not my party is viable.

If someone's happy to offer some starting tips here they'd be greatly appreciated.
You can rename spells, so one of the first things I did was go through and rename everything to something descriptive. This also effects when the enemies cast spells so it's kind of handy.

The first dungeon will have pretty easy encounters and a healing spring right there at the beginning, so I would say go on in and get your feet wet. It should guide you pretty closely to locating the first ring, and then the rest of the game will involve tracking down the other three and then going into the final dungeon.

Your party should be viable if you just have a couple simple front fow guys and then play around with classes to fill out your roster. I will mention that magic is really powerful, so Priest, Wizard, and Bishop are solid choices. You will need a shaman for some dungeons to deal with ghostly enemies.

Talk to people in the various towns and gather info. There are some really rewarding sidequests that you can start getting hints on.
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  #56  
Old 08-10-2017, 07:37 PM
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If the mechanics are the same as Elminage Gothic, you don't really need a Shaman -- Valkyries can attack ghosts regardless of weapon, and most decent weapons can attack ghosts anyway. Magic also works.

I find that Shamans are kind of useless through most of the game. YMMV
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  #57  
Old 08-10-2017, 08:21 PM
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You want a Summoner. They are necessary for later puzzles. Also, having an extra party member via summoned monster is awesome, especially since there's nothing stopping you from bagging a monster way out of your league and using it to gain an edge.
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  #58  
Old 08-10-2017, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhuminator View Post
Another 3DS dungeon crawler worth checking out:

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/the-keep-3ds
Proof that there's lots of stuff on the 3DS I'm not even aware of. That looks pretty interesting.
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  #59  
Old 08-11-2017, 06:49 AM
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Yeah, I liked The Keep. Bit more puzzle focused than usual for the genre, and the game has some neat, if unintuitive, mechanics. Combats a bit weak though.

Also; thanks, Eliminage doesn't lay all its cards on the table, so there's still a lot of stuff I'm not quite grasping, but I was able to finish the tutorial quest. Currently using a Fighter, Brawler, Thief, Cleric, Mage, Summoner party. Had a Valkyrie as well, but half my party can damage ghosts anyway either with magic or by breathing fire (which seems to decrease in damage?) so I felt that she was overkill.

Also; I'm assuming that there are rights issues or something interfering with the usual alternate names, but "Hotlet" is perhaps the least intuitive alternate name for a hobbit I've ever seen.
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  #60  
Old 08-11-2017, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhuminator View Post
Another 3DS dungeon crawler worth checking out:

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/the-keep-3ds
Huh. That's... a very Grimrock-looking game. Are the puzzles any good? If so, I'm definitely picking it up.
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