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  #61  
Old 08-11-2017, 07:43 AM
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Two more 3DS dungeon crawlers that are unique:

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/severed-3ds

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detai...l4aKaPkAGhnNrU
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  #62  
Old 08-11-2017, 08:16 AM
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Also; I'm assuming that there are rights issues or something interfering with the usual alternate names, but "Hotlet" is perhaps the least intuitive alternate name for a hobbit I've ever seen.
Haha, oh yeah. I don't know if they fixed this for 3DS but the labels for the Gnome, Dwarf, and Fairie races were all very obviously scrambled up in the PSP version.

Also, yeah everyone should try Severed. It's one of a kind. It has really unique art and atmosphere, the encounters only ever have to be beaten once, and if you lose it only sends you back to just before the fight. Also fighting is all touch controlled, and kind of punch-out like.
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  #63  
Old 08-11-2017, 08:20 AM
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I haven't played any of these extensively, but you could check out:

Seven Mages
Deep Paths: Labyrinth of Andokost
The Quest HD
Bard's Tale (includes both the modern action-RPG and the classic trilogy)
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I think QuestLord should still be on iOS at the moment, is definitely on Android, and QuestLord 2 will be coming out for both. They're on the Orcs and Elves / Grimrock-but-solo side of things, and the characters I've tried don't have immediate access to magic. Still, it's pretty fun, and QuestLord 2 will have twice the resolution, a nicer interface, longer view range, and a minimap - fixing near all my problems with the game.

Thanks, I'm looking into these!

Also, it looks like Elminage Original is on sale for $3 on PSP.
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  #64  
Old 08-11-2017, 08:46 AM
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Re-posting for new page, because I definitely want an answer to this before I buy:
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Originally Posted by JBear View Post
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Originally Posted by Exhuminator View Post
Another 3DS dungeon crawler worth checking out:

https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/the-keep-3ds
Huh. That's... a very Grimrock-looking game. Are the puzzles any good? If so, I'm definitely picking it up.
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  #65  
Old 08-11-2017, 09:13 AM
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Elminage is a modern series that gives you limited access to mapping (through spells or consumables). The Bard's Tale series is great for challenging mapping, since it gives you no automapping and MP-limited access to a compass and your location -- very useful tools in a game with unmarked spinners/teleports and graphics that do not indicate your facing. If you are more interested in traversing a dungeon than dealing with its inhabitants, you can import a decently-leveled party; otherwise, it can be a slog getting a party off the ground.
I forgot to thank you for this advice. I gave The Bard's Tale a couple of spins during 7th grade Logo class on Apple 2e and I had no idea what I was doing, so revisiting it ~30 years later holds some appeal.

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Also, it looks like Elminage Original is on sale for $3 on PSP.
$4.50 for non-PS Plus, but still quite tempting. Thanks for the heads-up!
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  #66  
Old 08-11-2017, 09:28 AM
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  #67  
Old 08-11-2017, 09:42 AM
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It's a sizable step down from the original Picdun, that's for sure. Unchained Blades is also on the 3DS, and it's not bad, but it is pretty dang unpolished, even when it's not being obnoxiously anime.

The Keeps got some good puzzling in it Jbear. Both in terms of navigation and riddling through brain teasers.
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  #68  
Old 08-11-2017, 09:56 AM
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  #69  
Old 08-11-2017, 09:59 AM
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I have Picdun 2, what makes the first game better?
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  #70  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:10 AM
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Re-posting for new page, because I definitely want an answer to this before I buy:
... meh.

I played a bit of it and found the interface to be a struggle.
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  #71  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:31 AM
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I played a bit of it and found the interface to be a struggle.
That's not at all a concern for me. I just care about the puzzles. Grimrock's (& Grimrock 2's) combat was always the worst part of that game, but the puzzles were great and I loved it.
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  #72  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:44 AM
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I have Picdun 2, what makes the first game better?
Much more interactive battles; combat was touch-screen based and, honestly, not dissimilar to that of Severed; you had to land timing on precision attacks and locate enemy weak points on your own. In 2, there was none of that, each party member could do one kind of attack only so combat just boiled down to trading blows until one of you died. Also, there was no bad anime fantasy art.

Outside of combat the games were identical, so might as well recommend the one with more enjoyable combat. Though, again, Severed is much the same and much better still.
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  #73  
Old 08-11-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JBear View Post
That's not at all a concern for me. I just care about the puzzles. Grimrock's (& Grimrock 2's) combat was always the worst part of that game, but the puzzles were great and I loved it.
In that case, the puzzles that I saw were not nearly on Grimrock's level, but I also didn't get very far. It took a couple tries to survive the tutorial rat. You're SUPPOSED to use your torch as a weapon, but I kept putting it in my off-hand.

Last edited by LancerECNM; 08-11-2017 at 11:23 AM.
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  #74  
Old 08-11-2017, 05:59 PM
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Ooookay, thought that, like Wizardry, there was just one big, multilevel dungeon in this game. And, it would seem, I was way off the mark there. Rare to find a dungeon crawler this open ended.

Still wish the game made its mechanics more clear; I just spent 7000 gold on a suit of armor that sounded impressive, but only offered one more defence point than what I currently had, and I still have no idea how Summoners work.
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  #75  
Old 08-11-2017, 06:09 PM
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I don't remember the exact details, but one of their spells is like a capture spell you use on an enemy. And then you can summon that monster.
As they get higher spell levels, it doesn't let them catch stronger monsters, it just lets them keep more stocked.
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  #76  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Exhuminator View Post
"Picdun 2: Witch's Curse is a 3D dungeon RPG set in the mysterious dungeon called 'Picdun.' Choose your partner from three female adventurers--the Archer, the Spellcaster and the Whipper"

Uh... OK...
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  #77  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:58 PM
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the Whipper
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  #78  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:50 PM
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Actually, it looks like the original Picdun isn't on the eShop anymore, just the sequel. It's still redownloadable if you bought it previously, however. So that's something.
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  #79  
Old 08-14-2017, 10:13 AM
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I dug into Elminage Original a bit over the weekend. First off, I played for a while without the patch, so some race names were swapped around and the translations were difficult to understand. I found the update button on the Vita OS and it's much better, but still not perfect. The game barely tells you what to do and pretty much never tells you how to do it. I wasted a ton of money trying to alchemize a thing, before learning that I needed to actually have an alchemist party member to do it. I alchemized the thing, and I have no idea what it is or what I need to do with it. I couldn't figure out the compass until I stumbled onto it in a menu after playing for a few hours. You have to put something on the compass, then it will point you toward a macguffin once you're close. Except, it points through walls, and you need to hit a hidden switch and walk through a totally dark room to get to the first macguffin in the training dungeon. I did all of that, fought a boss, then somehow walked through a one way door before picking the thing up, so I'm back at the start again. The game does create a map of each square you step on, but to look at it you have to spend Mage spell slots (thank goodness I have a mage). Equipment that you collect all needs to be identified, which costs a ton (I just found out that Bishops can identify stuff for free?!). There are a ton of races and classes, but I have no idea which of them work well together.

This might all sound like complaining, but I'm having a great time. the game just throws you in the deep end of the pool and lets you figure out everything for yourself.
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  #80  
Old 08-14-2017, 10:32 AM
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Yeah, the Bishop thing is bit of old Wizardry lore that I think a lot of spinoffs take for granted that people will know about.

I played through it on PSP so I never knew about the update. That's pretty nice. I just ended up avoiding the races that were mixed up because it bugged me so much.
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  #81  
Old 08-14-2017, 11:02 AM
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Actually there is an always-on auto map that doesn't cost anything more than a single inventory slot. But, like everything else, it's super obtuse.

If you have an Alchemist in your party, go to the inn and then enter the Alchemy Warehouse, and then you can merge those two items the king gave you into a map. I think it's called an Angelic Vestement or something like that. The King does tell you to do that, but he doesn't elaborate beyond "use alchemy to create a map from these items."

And while identifying items does cost you some dosh, you can also sell the identified item back for the same price the appraisal cost, so you're never out anything. Unless you equip it and it's cursed. That'll cost you.
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  #82  
Old 08-14-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Octopus Prime View Post
Actually there is an always-on auto map that doesn't cost anything more than a single inventory slot. But, like everything else, it's super obtuse.

If you have an Alchemist in your party, go to the inn and then enter the Alchemy Warehouse, and then you can merge those two items the king gave you into a map. I think it's called an Angelic Vestement or something like that. The King does tell you to do that, but he doesn't elaborate beyond "use alchemy to create a map from these items."
That's what that is?! I don't remember the king mentioning a map, but I talked to him pre-patch. I totally could have just missed it though, this game throws a lot at you all at once. After work I'll have to go through my inventory and see if I still have it and if I can equip it. I think I'm going to change up my party somewhat too. Right now I have:

front row: Fat Lizard Dragon Fighter, Brown Bear Beastman Brawler, Knockoff Hobbit Thief
back row: Classic Bearded Dwarf Priest, Old lady Elf Mage, Devil Lady Summoner

Now that I know Thieves can equip whips, I'm going to pick one up and move her to the back row. Maybe Priest to the front? I'm probably going to drop the Summoner and possibly the Fighter and get some more interesting classes. A Bard? A Lord? I dunno, I'm gonna mess around a bit. Does anyone know if the lizard dragon's fire breath works from the back row?
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  #83  
Old 08-14-2017, 12:02 PM
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I'm currently using

Doggo Axeboy, Ms. PUNCHZILLA, Cat; the Lady Knight
Tiny Thief The Wee-crimester, Tina Fey (who I realize I should have made a fairy. Geez) and Magic Devil Lady
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  #84  
Old 08-18-2017, 03:25 PM
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Because of this thread, I picked up Elminage Original again, but I'm just not feeling it. I grew up with Wizardry and have lots of fond memories of it, but those memories are about tense exploration, battles, and puzzles, not unnecessarily convoluted mundane tasks. I don't need every last interaction decision to be fetishized just because that was the way it was done in the original games. Wasting my time when there's nothing at stake, asking me to trade tedium for in-game progress, is my biggest gripe about RPGs in general, and Elminage is worse than most, putting that choice in front of me again and again:

-Spend time in character creation rerolling over and over for better stats if you don't want to be stuck with mediocre ones.
-Your bishop in reserves can identify items for free, but you need to first remove someone else from the party (first transferring any unidentified items out of their inventory) to make room for the bishop, swap in the bishop, do the IDs, and then swap them back out.
-The optimal way to heal up in town is to rest in the stables, have the cleric individually cast heal spells on everyone, and then rest again as needed. This process was being automated in RPGs 20 years ago.
-Needing to constantly back out of the shop to pool or divvy gold.

I'm fine with slow progress and risk of setbacks or failures, but I want the activities I do in game to carry some degree of risk, tension, tradeoffs, or interesting decisions, and there's just too much game tax in this for me to stick with it.

On the other hand, I also picked up StarCrawlers over the past week, and that one really got its hooks into me.
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  #85  
Old 08-27-2017, 12:36 AM
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I've made a start on The Bard's Tale, and it's taking some getting used to. I've started with new level one characters, which is probably a dumb thing to do. So far they're still level one. I was a bit disappointed when I found the review board and learned all my guys were about 1500 exp from level 2. Healing is a struggle early on - ten gold per hit point, way more than I can afford. I've taken Mogri's advice and been starting intra party fights with the bard's healing song and having everyone defend until they're all better. It kind of seems like cheating but I'm not sure how else you're supposed to keep up with healing. The only other options that come to mind are making new characters, stealing their gold, and dismissing them, or just letting my front line die and be replaced over and over until the back line level up enough to keep them going.

I've decided to map out the town before going for any dungeons, despite the game coming with a town map. I figure that'll get my levels up enough to handle dungeons, plus I'll be used to how the mapping works. And the quirks of the controls and stuff. Random encounters are triggered by the passage of real time rather than when you move, so I'm pausing after almost every step to draw. At first I was drawing the empty buildings, but it was making my map a mess and there don't seem to be any solid walls without doors in town so now I'm just drawing walls unless there's actually something behind them. Pressing down turns you around instead of stepping backwards which had me confused for a while. The other really confusing thing is that your viewpoint changes depending on whether you're facing a wall or an empty space. If you're facing a wall, it's all you can see. If you're facing a space, you can see it, but also the walls on either side of the space you're in, which made me think I was standing one space back from where I was. It makes the last step down a corridor feel like two steps. Also there's no turning animation, so if you're standing in a corner there's sometimes no on screen response to your key presses even though you have turned.

Apparently you can import characters from Ultima III, which I played about a decade and a half ago. Maybe I can find my save.
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  #86  
Old 08-28-2017, 02:30 AM
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Yeah, the biggest problem of the genre is that none of the developers really seem to know which things are just tedious and should be removed and which things are quite essential for the dungeon crawler feeling.

Like I could easily do without all the annoying per-character inventory management stuff but if the game gives me an auto-map that I can open unlimited times, it ruins the exploration.
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  #87  
Old 08-28-2017, 07:16 AM
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Also there's no turning animation, so if you're standing in a corner there's sometimes no on screen response to your key presses even though you have turned.
This is absolutely something they designed around in order to make some of the dungeon exploration trickier than it ought to be. It's usually not an issue in town, where most buildings have different textures, but in dungeons, every wall looks the same, and the floor texture doesn't change with your direction (in modern FPDCs, you can often pay attention to the floor to intuit your facing).
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  #88  
Old 08-28-2017, 09:18 AM
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I've played a bit further now, reached level 2. Apparently the stat ups on leveling are random. All my melee dudes got IQ and my magicians got strength. So I quit out and did it again until I got better results. Turns out if you quit without saving you'll have no money when you reload, which is good to have found out while I'm still basically broke all the time. I reached level 2 by running the samurai guardian over and over, which was pretty lame but fairly painless. Now that I have two charges of bard songs and more HP I can explore a bit further before running back to the guild. My plan is once I hit level three and get access to the compass spell I'll take on the wine cellar, which I've taken one step into and backed out of again.
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  #89  
Old 08-28-2017, 09:34 AM
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I've played a bit further now, reached level 2. Apparently the stat ups on leveling are random. All my melee dudes got IQ and my magicians got strength. So I quit out and did it again until I got better results.
To the extent that stats matter at all (I'm unclear on most of them), you really don't need to worry about this -- everyone will reach their stat caps eventually, and they're pretty low to begin with (18?).

Also, I think when your mages reclass, their stats reset. If not, then they'll stat-cap even faster than everyone else anyway. Bottom line: really don't worry about your mages' stats.

City is obviously the worst area in the game for leveling. Once you open up Catacombs, you'll get access to some stupidly good grinding spots -- spiked tiles with guaranteed fights against packs of enemies you can take out with a single spell. Don't bother overgrinding before then, although it's probably worth hitting 3 before you tackle the sewers.

Losing all your gold is apparently specific to the Apple version of the game. If you're emulating Apple, use save states or the actual save feature to avoid it. Another Apple-specific bug: changing your bard's equipment or reordering your party will cancel his current song.

Getting past level 1 is the toughest part of the game, so you're past the hump!
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  #90  
Old 08-28-2017, 09:53 AM
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As for myself, in Eliminage, buying the Flamberge from the first town is practically a game-breaker, at least early on. Not only is it vastly more powerful than any other weapon I've found in the right hands, but it can cast the third-tier of fire magic (I used the DQ naming scheme for spells, so I can't recall what it's properly called), so any non-boss/unexpectedly strong mob encounter ends pretty decisively early on.

I've also found a pair of ballet shoes that turn whoever wears them into a cleric. Which is kind of a hindrance, actually, so wearing them resulted in a couple of reloads.
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